NBA 2025-26 NBA Thread

[ambchang]

When it comes to PG, size matters. Curry is the obvious exception but you are talking about the best shooter of all time, and by quite a margin, so he's literally the exception that proved the rule. Besides, he's 6'3", so he isn't that small.

The only small PG to ever be the best player on his own team to win a title was Isiah Thomas, but even then that team was loaded top to bottom, with Dumars, Dantley, Aguirre carrying a heavy load on offence as well. To top it off, they have defensive players oozing out of their pores. Rodman, Laimbeer, Mahorn Salley, Dumars again. And get this, in 1988, Thomas only had a ORtg of 106 and DRtg of 105, when the team was at 110.8 and 104.7 respectively. Dantley had a NetRtg of +14, Rodman +12, Dumars +6, Laimbeer +15, Aguirre +3, Microwave +3, Mahorn +7, Salley +4, even James Edwards had a +2. Of all the players who played more than 500 minutes, Thomas had the worst NetRtg. He did turn it up in the playoffs where he put in 108/104 for a +4m byt again, he was the worst in ORtg on the team in the playoffs. Sally had a +25, Mahorn +20, Dumars +9, Laimbeer +13, Rodman +14 (and first in the playoffs in DRtg), Aguirre +6, Microwave +4, Edwards +4. Thomas is charismatic and everything, obviously their leader, but advanced stats is not kind to him.

In the same season, he fiinshed ahead of only James Edwards for the regulars in WS/48, 2nd in BPM (behind Laimbeer) and tied for 1st in VORP (again, with Laimbeer. Laimbeer was also 3rd on the team in WS/48, behind Dantley and Rodman. In the playoffs, Zeke was 3rd last only ahead of Edwards and Aguirre in WS/48, but was 1st in BPM and VORP. I have to give him credit for turning it on in the playoffs, but this idea of him being clearly and by far the best player on those bad boys Pistons isn't overly accurate, at least from a statistical sense.

89 is more or less the same, he actually only had a +0 in NetRtg (104 for both O and D). Rodman killed it this year with a +24 after Zeke forced Dantley out (rumoured). The only regular worse than Zeke in NetRtg was the Micorwave. Ws/48 he was 7th (again Rodman led the pack), 2nd in BPM behind Laimbeer, but #1 in VORP. Then again, he stepped it up big time in the playoffs, #1 in WS/48, BPM and VORP.

Another guy you can argue was Dennis Johnson, but then those Sonics were pretty terrible (the league was bad back then) and they did have Sikma and Gus Williams. Walt Frazier was great, but again there's Willis Reed and Earl the Pearl, besides he was 6'3", which was pretty big for a PG back in those days.

 

[Valparaiso]

^^ This is why Donovan Mitchell's career drives me crazy. He's a 6'3" guy who doesn't want to play the point, and spent his Utah years paired with the 6'2" Ricky Rubio and then a 6'1" Mike Conley... it didn't work. Now he's in Cleveland being paired with a 6'1" Darius Garland. Spida's a talent but he's 29 now and has never made it past the second round of the playoffs. The fact that well paid GMs and coaches still try to make the dramatically undersized backcourt experiment work amazes me. The statistical probability of it producing a title is so minuscule that it should off the table as a consideration to any team that seriously dreams of a championship.

 

[spursistan]

Teams should start tanking games against Clippers..I'm being serious, can't risk having OKC end up with top 4 pick next draft

 

[timtonymanu]

I know some people on here were lauding the Clippers for their offseason moves (lol Brook Lopez and John Collins) and as usual it amounts to nothing. The Clippers downfall is glorious but I hate how it makes OKC better.

 

[spursistan]

I know some people on here were lauding the Clippers for their offseason moves (lol Brook Lopez and John Collins) and as usual it amounts to nothing. The Clippers downfall is glorious but I hate how it makes OKC better.

i feel like old teams can't hang anymore in today's NBA. The frenetic pace and higher injury rate end up wrecking those type of teams before we even get to playoffs..Like Warriors, Clippers might still get in through the play-in only to get swatted aside in first round by OKC/Denver

 

[spursistan]

Biggest elephant in the room in the NBA right now ; The Magic might actually be better without Banchero (their offense is sure better).

This needs to be a legit conversation.. even going back to last season...

 

[SpursBills]

Teams should start tanking games against Clippers..I'm being serious, can't risk having OKC end up with top 4 pick next draft

I really want a Lauri to the clippers trade for this reason - clippers get out of the basement, Utah becomes bad enough to get into the bottom 5 safely and guarantee that their pick doesn’t convey, OKC loses out on 2 top 10 picks in this absolutely stacked draft

 

[LeBowen]

I really want a Lauri to the clippers trade for this reason - clippers get out of the basement, Utah becomes bad enough to get into the bottom 5 safely and guarantee that their pick doesn’t convey, OKC loses out on 2 top 10 picks in this absolutely stacked draft

Clippers have nothing to offer.
Ainge won't let Lauri go for anything less than a legit young player and 3 FRPs. Whether that's a fair price or not is irrelevant, it's Ainge and he has no reason to lower it.

 

[spursistan]

Bucks lost 7 straight. Things could get interesting on the Giannis front before the deadline; he looked and sounded pissed in post-game presser..

If I'm Miami i am absolutely picking the phone and see what Milwaukee asking price is if this slide continues (obviously gotta send all your future picks). Other than Knicks, Heat are the team Giannis would welcome a trade to (great city/market with warm weather, a winning program and Top 2 coach in league). East is so up for grabs; it would be dumb to contemplate coming West..

 

[John B]

Bucks lost 7 straight. Things could get interesting on the Giannis front before the deadline; he looked and sounded pissed in post-game presser..

If I'm Miami i am absolutely picking the phone and see what Milwaukee asking price is if this slide continues (obviously gotta send all your future picks). Other than Knicks, Heat are the team Giannis would welcome a trade to (great city/market with warm weather, a winning program and Top 2 coach in league). East is so up for grabs; it would be dumb to contemplate coming West..

But he’s top PF player, even better than Timmy

 

[timtonymanu]

Bucks lost 7 straight. Things could get interesting on the Giannis front before the deadline; he looked and sounded pissed in post-game presser..

If I'm Miami i am absolutely picking the phone and see what Milwaukee asking price is if this slide continues (obviously gotta send all your future picks). Other than Knicks, Heat are the team Giannis would welcome a trade to (great city/market with warm weather, a winning program and Top 2 coach in league). East is so up for grabs; it would be dumb to contemplate coming West..

Bucks post 2021 have been such a trainwreck. They never properly replaced their declining role players and the best they did was an aging Damian Lillard who ended up going back to his former team anyway.

Spurs need to take note of this but then again, Giannis never got to play with someone on the level of Fox, Castle, and Harper.

 

[bozhemoi]

Milwaukee is similar to Cleveland in LeBron's first run there. Couldn't get talent around him.

 

[Quentin_Compson]

The Bucks never had that many assets though, if I recall? Vital parts of the championship core kept getting injured and/or just were a bit old already. I don't quite get some of the criticism of the Bucks's FO in that regard. I love Jrue, but he was often asked to play too big a role offensively in Milkwaukee, so when Giannis demanded a shake-up of the roster, Holiday was one of the few sensible options. Getting Lillard looks terrible in hindsight and probably was a bit of a hail-mary at the time, but he had just played maybe his best individual season - again, the age factor certainly was a problem there. As great as Giannis is, he is a somewhat special player to build around - ideally, you need both a stretch big who is a great rim protector and lots of shooting around him.

 

[LeBowen]

Milwaukee is similar to Cleveland in LeBron's first run there. Couldn't get talent around him.

Great comparison, really.
Bucks had a 5 year window of being top contenders as far as the roster goes.
2006-10 Cavs were garbage as much as I hate Lebron.

2019: Almost went up 3-0 in ECF, lost to eventual champs.
2020: Best record in the league, covid hits. Sterling Brown things happen, they lead the bubble protests and aren't focused on basketball. Lost against Heat that made the finals.
2021: won.
2022: Lost in 7 against another team that made the finals. Middleton was injured and didn't play.
2023: 58 wins, Giannis gets injured in the first game of the playoffs, Heat beats them and makes the finals.

Their rosters were legit, it's just that they were really unluky and couldn't stay healthy.
Then their front office went into panic mode and traded for Lillard, but injuries struck again.

Can't really blame it on anyone, they would've made at least one more finals if not for covid or injuries.

 

[spursistan]

Bucks post 2021 have been such a trainwreck. They never properly replaced their declining role players and the best they did was an aging Damian Lillard who ended up going back to his former team anyway.

Spurs need to take note of this but then again, Giannis never got to play with someone on the level of Fox, Castle, and Harper.

Can you imagine if the Bucks didn't the 2021 title? Biggest waste of superstar's prime of all time...Even then, i still think his best years have been fumbled for most part (some of it injury-related). Think about it this way : Giannis has only won one playoffs series (vs Bulls in '22) between age 27-31. That specific career interval is when all-time greats usually rack up the bulk of their accolades, championships and multiple deep POs runs (Conference Finals, Finals) see Duncan '03-'08; Shaq'00-04, Lebron '12-16, Curry'15-'19. . For Giannis, those were extremely lean years.

 

[spursistan]

Are The Hornets ever going to be good again? Just trade Lamelo for pieces and move on from his circus show..This is definitely a culture thing before it is a talent issue..I would move him at the deadline, tank harder, and hope to add a blue-chip guy in next draft to build around B.Miller/Kon. That's pretty nice young core in the East.

 

[STAT88]

Watching Pels Warriors. Fears getting into it with Moody.

I swear i’ve seen Fears and Queen get into scuffles almost every game. So weird for rookies to be doing that so consistently. I kinda like the no BS approach, but they’re taking it a bit far.

 

[STAT88]

Great comparison, really.
Bucks had a 5 year window of being top contenders as far as the roster goes.
2006-10 Cavs were garbage as much as I hate Lebron.

2019: Almost went up 3-0 in ECF, lost to eventual champs.
2020: Best record in the league, covid hits. Sterling Brown things happen, they lead the bubble protests and aren't focused on basketball. Lost against Heat that made the finals.
2021: won.
2022: Lost in 7 against another team that made the finals. Middleton was injured and didn't play.
2023: 58 wins, Giannis gets injured in the first game of the playoffs, Heat beats them and makes the finals.

Their rosters were legit, it's just that they were really unluky and couldn't stay healthy.
Then their front office went into panic mode and traded for Lillard, but injuries struck again.

Can't really blame it on anyone, they would've made at least one more finals if not for covid or injuries.

Yeah the Bucks championship window was 2019-2023 and they ended up getting 1 which is hard to complain about but they could have had more. Those teams were good and Giannis teammates were way better than anything LeBron had in his first Cavs stint.

Their decline started after the 2022 season Middleton fell off a cliff because of injuries and Lopez started a steep decline due to age (defensive metrics fell of a cliff after 2023). Then they traded Jrue for Dame and that was the end for them.

 

[Kick-Stand]

You can succeed with a pass-first PG, they just cannot be your best player.

You're forgetting one big exception

 

[JMarkJohns]

You're forgetting one big exception

Nobody is forgetting the exception to the rule. And the exception to most pass-first PGs heights. And the exception to modern ball.

Having one out of however many over 45 years isn’t proof. It’s an outlier.

 

[Valparaiso]

^^^ I think this is all part of the evolution of basketball. It's so interesting sometimes how long it takes many to adapt, and how some never adapt. People used to think that PGs had to be small in the same general way they used to think that bigs weren't three point shooters. Now no one says three point shooting is inappropriate for PFs or centers. The 72 win Bulls started two 6'6" combo guards in their back court and had their 6'8" SF bring the ball up a good amount of the time, and the the 19-1 Thunder start a 6'6" PG. It's not overly surprising that having a height advantage at the initial point of attack on nearly every possession creates an advantage, but still, year after year, teams with micro back courts think they're going to be the first ones in 35 years to win a chip with a 6'1" PG and a 6'3" SG.

 

[Neuromancer]

Clippers are a god damn embarrassment. Heat went on a 30-2 run against them tonight

 

[Snake Eyes]

Good night for the Spurs. Denver, Houston, and Atlanta all lost tonight. Lakers down by 23 midway through the fourth.

 

[Quentin_Compson]

Some rather surprising results last night: Bucks (with Giannis) lose to Washington, Denver (with Jokic) lose at home to the Mavs, and Houston (with Durant) lose to the Jazz.

 

[Raven_]

Somehow lakers, rockets and nuggets lost on the same day. Good for us