Trade Spurs Trade Ideas

[Arguendo]

We hope its just Fox. That assumes Castle and Harper reach these expectations we have in our heads. I'm not ready to make future decisions like that based on a hope that everyone reaches their 90th percentile. Still, what happens if they do? Then we're faced with the choice of moving one of them or moving Fox. That's still a great position to be in. The young guys would bring a bigger package, but Fox should still bring back what I suggested if he's still healthy.

You pointed out the assumption that I specifically pointed out. Yes, Castle and Harper would have to look like ASs or otherwise be significantly outplaying Fox for it to happen (which makes Fox hard to trade, which I also pointed out).
If that doesn't happen, there's not an issue, but that's a bad thing. You don't have to point out assumptions that have already been pointed out.
Also, Castle is currently playing at an AS level. Top 10 in Ast, Top 5 in steals, Top50 in PPG, Top65 in Reb, Top20 in FTr. Sports media is talking about him as All-D. They vote, he's arguably at that level today.

 

[OK Computer]

Harper’s ego will arrive after he’s reached his potential, not before. Him being in a winning situation and a franchise that knows a thing or two about personal sacrifice for team glory will also slow down this “ego arrival” timeline. Worrying about it is way too premature.

This is also why I pay close attention to Dylan’s interactions with Fox. That relationship will be directly tied to how willing Harper is to accept a “lesser” role. The team hugely benefits from him being a bench piece - it’s a superior advantage against most teams. I don’t know why as a fan we wouldn’t want that for the team over some imaginary reason that Harper will be upset or that his development is hindered somehow. His minutes will overlap enough to where he will see time against starters. Feasting on bench players will give us a 20 point lead over teams once he truly gets there - fucking imagine that!

 

[OK Computer]

Being named “starter” is such a pointless feat - I want these future stars to care about winning and winning only. I don’t see that huge of an advantage for Harper to start.

 

[BacktoBasics]

Denver did a great job keeping MPJ under the media radar. The moment he got to Brooklyn he started running his mouth out in the wild and it’s an absolute trainwreck.

Partnered with his inability to stay healthy and how streaky he is I just can’t see a single reason to trade for him.

 

[BankShot21]

I'd start all 3 of them and stagger. Or let one of Castle or Harper come off the bench and be a 6MOY contender. I don't think the starting thing is that big of a deal for now.

Just like the Manu days. It's not who starts what matters. It's who finishes

 

[DAF86]

Just like the Manu days. It's not who starts what matters. It's who finishes

There isn't any other Manu. If Harper isn't starting by year 2, you can expect Ron to be all up the Spurs' business.

 

[mo7888]

Castle and Harper are top 4 picks. Their 90th percentile is HOF. All Star is like 70-75th percentile. Castle is well on his way to that already.

Even better...

 

[mo7888]

You pointed out the assumption that I specifically pointed out. Yes, Castle and Harper would have to look like ASs or otherwise be significantly outplaying Fox for it to happen (which makes Fox hard to trade, which I also pointed out).
If that doesn't happen, there's not an issue, but that's a bad thing. You don't have to point out assumptions that have already been pointed out.
Also, Castle is currently playing at an AS level. Top 10 in Ast, Top 5 in steals, Top50 in PPG, Top65 in Reb, Top20 in FTr. Sports media is talking about him as All-D. They vote, he's arguably at that level today.

The pount I'm making is that if Castle and Harper turn into to what we want them too, that doesn't make Fox hard to trade. The only thing that would make him hard to trade is an injury or if his athleticism falls off a cliff.

 

[ambchang]

So I looked up a list of Forwards or Centers who had a 3PAr of 0.3+, DRB% of .2+ and ORB% of .08+ last year, and there were only 13 players:

Players we shouldn't pursue because they are too old, too expensive or both:

Player	Comments
KAT	No way we can get him or fit him under our cap
Vucevic	Old, defence sucks, can't move at all.
Kevin Love	Old, also can't defend

Players that I would love to have:

Player	Comments	Proposed Trade
Clingan	Great defensive potential. No way we can get him from Portland, unless we part with some major pieces.	Let's just Sochan + 2nds won't do it.
Kel'el Ware	Same as Clingan	Let's just Sochan + 2nds won't do it.
Isaiah Stewart	Has a decent role with the Pistons, efficient offensively, quite good on defence, very strong rebounder, can protect the rim, a bit turnover prone. On a reasonable contract ($15/year until 27-28).	Not sure what we can provide that can pique the Piston's interest, but given the situation with Jaden Ivey, perhaps a Vassell + some 2nds and a lottery protected 1st for Stewart and some salary back can work?
Josh Hart	Not really the biggest fan. He played heavy minutes last year (led the league) but seems to be falling out of favour by just a little with Brown working a 2 C or 2 SG lineup more. He is still 5th on the team in minutes so far. Not the most efficient scorer but he can rebound very well for a SF, passes the ball well and plays good defence.	He has a team option of $22.37M next year ($20.92M this year). Given they have $170M tied up with 4 players, I am not sure how likely they will keep Josh at $21 next year, especially considering they are over the 2nd apron this year. So it is possible they will look to shed salary. I would hate to do it but Barnes at $19M would be a perfect fit, and given we are helping them rid of salary, maybe we can even get a few 2nd round picks back or even a protected swap for 2030 would work?
Jalen Smith	Good shooter at decent rate. He played PF early in his career so he can be a PF/C role which would be perfect for us. Very good rebounder but quite foul prone. Very efficient offensively but a bit of stone hands based on what I saw last game. Protects the rim very well and a good defensive player.	He is on a very reason contract ($9M this year, $9.4M next year), then UFA the year after and the Bulls have lots of cap space. The Bulls seem to be revamping the roster and shedding salary, but then signed Giddey to that contract so I am not sure if they are planning to build around him. But I would imagine they want to rebuild and are looking for picks. To match salary, Sochan and/or Jordan Mc can be used, and then we add a top 8 protected pick (Hawks 27?, our own 29) would sound like a fair deal.

Players who are more 13th man roster spots, does not address PF need:

Player	Comments	Proposed Trade
Kobe Brown	A bit undersized, very low minutes player so shouldn't take much. Willing to shoot 3s, but not accurate at ALL (worse than Sochan) and not efficient on offence at the slightest bit. Decent rebounder and willing passer. No rim protection whatsoever. He's basically another Sochan, but with less creation and worse shooting. That said, he is cheap and can replace Sochan.	Well, Sochan plus a few 2nds for a first sounds good, but the Clips don't need a Sochan type and likely would require a PG. Sounds crazy, but a Jordan Mc should do. However, he doesn't really address the PF need and is more of a stop gap before Sochan is gone.
PJ Hall	To be honest I didn't even know who he was so the analysis is purely based on stats watching, and these are based on very small sample sizes likely during garbage time. Very efficient scorer, great rebounding, some rim protection but fouls a lot. I mean, looking at his per 100 he looks like a bloody MVP candidate.	He is on a two way with the Grizzlies (was a 2 way with the Nuggets last year) so it would take next to nothing to get him. Minix? Same as Kobe Brown though, does not address the PF need whatsoever but more upgrading the 13th man role.
Hunter Tyson	Same as above, just boxscore reading. Horrible defensively, quick trigger on 3 but not that accurate. Low efficiency. Rebounds somewhat respectably, doesn't really pass, doesn't turn the ball over much. Fouls.	2nd round pick who is making very little. Again, Jordan Mc may do it.
Ron Harper Jr.	A bit undersized for a PF. I have only watched his highlights strictly because of Dylan Harper. Not all that efficient with questionable shot selection, rebounds decently well in limited minutes, willing passer, hustles and plays hard. Appears to be OK defensively.	Two way his entire career. Again, a Minix type trade.

 

[scott]

Great list, @ambchang - I have one who doesn't meet the criteria of the post, but I think should be considered... a guy I've talked about for awhile, but I don't think is a realistic target until he hits UFA this summer.

Dean Wade. 6'9" PF from CLE in his 7th season out of Kansas State.

You set a criteria of 3PAr of 0.3+, DRB% of .2+ and ORB% of .08+ last year... here are Dean's numbers:

3PAr: .819
DRB%: .166
ORB%: .045

He falls short on the rebounding criteria, but the DRB in particularly is still pretty good. Using CraftedNBA's DRB Quality Metric (which is [RADRB * .75] + [DRB% * .25]) he rates out at 84th percentile. (Full disclosure, his ORB Quality metric is only 24th percentile).

His defense is also pretty solid, coming in 97th percentile in CraftedDPM.

Career .367 3pt Shooter on 8.2 3PA/100.

He's playing 21 mpg right now for CLE which is why I don't think he's gettable at the moment, but he's the guy I have penciled in as a FA target with the full MLE.

 

[spurraider21]

Castle might already be an All Star-level player tbh.

i think he's close. his defense has mostly been good this year, but he kind of plays up to his competition on that end. was asleep quite a bit against the bulls, and in general, his off-ball defense is pretty come and go. he will ball watch at times.

he defended Luka admirably, but also struggled with Booker (notably committing 3 fouls in one sequence)

and offensively, he has taken a leap this year with his paint scoring. he seems to have more of a plan this year and its not always just the exaggerated hesitation move. he's also somehow shooting nearly 60% on shots between 10-16 feet, which is obviously not sustainable. but just like last year, his 3pt shot is abysmal, and those shorter middies/floaters between 3-10 feet are awful. he's at 35% there this year, was at 37% last year.

 

[spurraider21]

I'd start all 3 of them and stagger. Or let one of Castle or Harper come off the bench and be a 6MOY contender. I don't think the starting thing is that big of a deal for now.

yeah theres theoretically room to give each of them exactly 32 minutes in a 3-man guard rotation. realistically you'd have a bit less for Harper, with him probably playing around 27-28mpg.

if you open up some Castle SF minutes, that allows for further flexibility.

 

[scott]

yeah theres theoretically room to give each of them exactly 32 minutes in a 3-man guard rotation. realistically you'd have a bit less for Harper, with him probably playing around 27-28mpg.

if you open up some Castle SF minutes, that allows for further flexibility.

Yeah, I think we should just look at all three of them as guards, and we're going to play a lot of 3-guard lineups (which is what OKC does).

Steph and Dylan have a little more flexibility to play down to a wing/guard where as Fox is more of strictly a guard, but that really doesn't matter. I think they all fit quite well together on both ends of the court. They're going to struggle most against bigger guards/wings who can rise up and shoot over them, but you just adjust to those circumstances. Otherwise, all three are capable of staying in front of their man and funneling traffic to Wemby. With the right PF, this works really well for the minutes all three of them play together, which really won't even be that many once you get into the rotations. It will just be the opening and closing lineup when they play together, and sometimes you may need to adjust and sit one of them in the closing lineup.

 

[LeBowen]

I don't think I should be writing this , but I think Spurs won't use any of their 2028 and onwards picks for at least a couple more years.
We should never talk about it, but we can't mortgage our future until Wemby lasts at least a couple of seasons without any blood clot issues.
Before we got Castle/Fox/Harper it wouldn't have mattered because losing Wemby would probably mean eventual relocation, but right now our team would still be at least somewhat fine even if the worst happens.

As of now, I think our tradeable assets are '26 FRP, all those SRPs, Devin, Jeremy, Barnes, Olynyk and all those cheap contracts.
Hawks look decent and '26 pick probably won't be top10, we could use it if an opportunity to get a legit wing presents itself.
I think we'll keep '27 until we see what happens with Trae. And after all, it's the Hawks, they can collapse at any time.
Those picks far into the future won't be dealt, at least not for a couple more years. Especially since they have swaps attached and the franchises we're swapping with are known to make idiotic moves.

 

[Exstatic]

I don't think I should be writing this , but I think Spurs won't use any of their 2028 and onwards picks for at least a couple more years.
We should never talk about it, but we can't mortgage our future until Wemby lasts at least a couple of seasons without any blood clot issues.
Before we got Castle/Fox/Harper it wouldn't have mattered because losing Wemby would probably mean eventual relocation, but right now our team would still be at least somewhat fine even if the worst happens.

As of now, I think our tradeable assets are '26 FRP, all those SRPs, Devin, Jeremy, Barnes, Olynyk and all those cheap contracts.
Hawks look decent and '26 pick probably won't be top10, we could use it if an opportunity to get a legit wing presents itself.
I think we'll keep '27 until we see what happens with Trae. And after all, it's the Hawks, they can collapse at any time.
Those picks far into the future won't be dealt, at least not for a couple more years. Especially since they have swaps attached and the franchises we're swapping with are known to make idiotic moves.

That pick has a swap attached to it and won’t be traded. You also can’t just trade a swap that you hold from a 3rd team.

 

[LeBowen]

That pick has a swap attached to it and won’t be traded. You also can’t just trade a swap that you hold from a 3rd team.

Did you read the next line or do you must nitpick on everything and always try to be a smartass?

 

[scott]

Another option at our disposal might be to get cute and offer up a Swap of the best of ATL/SA with another team who might want to bet on Atlanta faltering. This could solidify our pick straight into the 20s if we went this route, but it might be worth it.

I wouldn't hate losing out on an FRP outright this year, but 27 and beyond we're going to need to those picks to keep our talent pipeline full. Getting Bryant at 14 last year kind of takes the pressure off adding a first round rookie next season.

We do need to start taking SRPs a little more seriously though.

 

[ambchang]

Devin’s career asst% is like 13, MPJs is like 7. They’re not the same. I guess I wouldn’t throw up in my mouth too much if it were just Devin and Lunch Lady, but be warned. His nickname is as hilarious as Lunch Lady, and as on the nose as Street Clothes:

Never Swing The Rock, per bbref.

I'd say people who complains about our team low on BBIQ but advocate for MPJ is inconsistent.

 

[Exstatic]

Did you read the next line or do you must nitpick on everything and always try to be a smartass?

Nothing I said was anything other than straight factual. If you can’t take nitpicking, though, you may be in the wrong place. It’s kind of the norm here.

If you trade the pick and swap combo now, or any time before the lottery,you’re giving it to the team whether it’s mid lottery, or jumps to #1. It doesn’t matter if you think it won’t be top 10, top 4 or #1. it actually could be.

 

[LeBowen]

Nothing I said was anything other than straight factual.

It's not factual if you ignore the rest of my post. I said the pick could be available because Hawks look solid and the East is garbage.
Which you completely ignored, as per usual.

 

[Shmurs]

I'd say people who complains about our team low on BBIQ but advocate for MPJ is inconsistent.

Comparing MPJ’s IQ to the amigos is an interesting maneuver. He is an established professional high pedigree basketball player who has control over his station in the game. That requires a certain threshold of IQ. He’s not an idiot chucking passes into the stands. He just plays a limited type of role. Probably enjoys that it’s easier to be a 3&D than a guy who has to innovate so he’s fine with it.

Meanwhile we’re still potty training certain dudes that have been criticized in recent years.

 

[ambchang]

Comparing MPJ’s IQ to the amigos is an interesting maneuver. He is an established professional high pedigree basketball player who has control over his station in the game. That requires a certain threshold of IQ. He’s not an idiot chucking passes into the stands. He just plays a limited type of role. Probably enjoys that it’s easier to be a 3&D than a guy who has to innovate so he’s fine with it.

Meanwhile we’re still potty training certain dudes that have been criticized in recent years.

Would really be nice if you actually look things up.

Last year (using a bigger sample size) MPJ had a TOV% of:

Playtype	TOV% (Rank on team)	PPP (Rank on team)
Isolation	21.1% (Worst)	0.84 (2nd worst)
Transition	12.7% (4th worst)	1.19 (5th worst)
Pick and Roll Ball Handler	18.2 (3rd worst) Note: Jokic was 2nd worst at 19.8, but has a score frequency of 43.8 vs. 36.4 for MPJ)	0.89 (3rd worst)
Pick and Roll Roller	3.7 (2nd best on team)	1.15 (7th best on team)
Spot Up	3.0 (2nd best), but then the guy never passes.	1.29 (2nd)
Cut	5.9 (3rd worst)	1.45 (4th best)

Compared to our low BBIQ ballers:

Playtype	TOV%	PPP
Isolation	Vassell - 6.4 KJ - 5.4 Sochan - 13.3	Vassell - 1.11 KJ - 1.04 Sochan - 0.73
Transition	Vassell - 7.0 KJ - 10.1 Sochan -15.0	Vassell - 1.04 KJ - 1.15 Sochan - 1.13 Note (Our transition PPP is much lower than DEN, I guess those Jokic outlets help a lot)
Pick and Roll Ball Handler	Vassell - 11.7 KJ - 6.9 Sochan - 15.4	Vassell - 0.91 KJ - 1.04 Sochan - 1.00
Pick and Roll Roller	Vassell - 7.7 KJ - 12.5 Sochan - 5.8	Vassell - 1.39 KJ - 1.17 Sochan - 1.21
Spot Up	Vassell - 3.8 KJ - 7.0 Sochan - 5.8	Vassell - 1.07 KJ - 0.91 Sochan - 0.84 (yes, the guy can't shoot)
Cut	Vassell - 0 KJ - 4.8 Sochan - 4.9	Vassell - 1.82 KJ - 1.35 Sochan - 1.27

So even though MPJ was known to never pass the ball and his job is to catch and shoot, he somehow got higher TOV%s in isolation, transition and pick and roll ball handler (well, he can't really handle the ball) than ALL 3 amigos.

As a pick and roll roller, he is better in keeping the ball but has a lower PPP than all 3 amigos despite having the best passing big man of all time on his team.

Spot up he doesn't turn the ball over because, again, he doesn't pass and is really good at PPP because he can shoot, but that has nothing to do with BBIQ.

On cuts, his TOV% are worse than all of our 3 amigos and PPP is worse than Vassell and only slightly better than KJ and Sochan despite having Jokic on his team.

Time to come up with some bullshit random unbacked reasons like "but KPJ TOs are high IQ TOs that actually has a purpose".

 

[Exstatic]

It's not factual if you ignore the rest of my post. I said the pick could be available because Hawks look solid and the East is garbage.
Which you completely ignored, as per usual.

Something is either factual or it isn’t. Reading part or all of your post doesn’t make what I posted counterfactual.

If you think the Spurs are trading either the 26 pick/swap combo or the 27 pick before those lotteries take place for anything short of an All NBA player, you are delusional.

 

[Shmurs]

this is a weird thing you’re doing. I’ve seen all of these guys play. Let’s just keep it in the scope of Devin and Jeremy. I’m pretty comfortable with the IQ assessment after watching 100+ games of each. Also have seen enough of Porter that he can be a part of a championship team as a starter, playing off a highly intuitive and versatile center. I’m just taking out of my ass though because we haven’t seen MPJ on a championship team making the necessary plays. And we didn’t see the other guys lead the most pathetic stretch of basketball the league’s seen this decade. Just spit balling.

 

[ambchang]

this is a weird thing you’re doing. I’ve seen all of these guys play. Let’s just keep it in the scope of Devin and Jeremy. I’m pretty comfortable with the IQ assessment after watching 100+ games of each. Also have seen enough of Porter that he can be a part of a championship team as a starter, playing off a highly intuitive and versatile center. I’m just taking out of my ass though because we haven’t seen MPJ on a championship team making the necessary plays. And we didn’t see the other guys lead the most pathetic stretch of basketball the league’s seen this decade. Just spit balling.

This is so ridiculous that it's almost funny. Westbrook was an integral part of a team that went to the finals, so he must be high IQ. JR Smith was a freaking starter on a title team that went to the finals and the year after. He must be high IQ too.

Boris Diaw played and started in most games for:
- The Hawks who won 28 and 13 games (not in the playoffs, as in the entire season).
- The Bobcats who won 37, 44, and 29 games in 3 full seasons, and went 5-32 when he was there before he was traded to the Spurs.

I guess Diaw must have been one dumb mofo, but caught some magic potion and became a smart player with Phoenix and the Spurs.

Fact that MPJ played with Jokic, a "highly intuitive and versatile center" means he DIDN'T have to be high IQ to be productive. There's a reason his FG%, 3P% are at an all-time low, his 2P% is the lowest he had outside of his rookie season (and the year he played 9 games because of injuries), and his turnovers are more than doubling his career average despite similar minutes.