Trade Spurs Trade Ideas

[TBdog]

Castle offense can obviously be replaced, but he is our point of attack defender. We don't have another one.

 

[SpursBills]

The reason I say that is because Castle seems to have been banging on about playing PG since before he was drafted. He played a big part in helping turn the Spurs around last season.

I agree that you're probably right that it's not realistic, but in this case, I can see it being a possibility. Maybe he asks for a trade if they didn't agree to play him at PG?

Then couple that with the fact that Chris Paul likely had an agreement to start all season last season, it seems the Spurs are starting to bend. I never would have expected them to do something like that ever, yet it seems like they promised Chris Paul a starting spot all of last season. It was always you gotta earn your spot and nothing is promised, but it seems to me they have made some promises as recently as last season with CP3. If Castle is really adamant of playing PG, maybe they have tried appeasing him. This would have also happened during the off-season when they had no idea if they'd be a good team or not, so maybe the caved and went along with it. Why has Mitch not taken him off the ball with his recent struggles the past month or so when you have a PG you just gave a max contract to?

I think once the playoffs start, we'll get the answers to some of these questions.

In theory, Mitch can be doing with Castle exactly what Pop was doing with Sochan - force feed him touches to try and develop him in the regular season to try and unlock something for long term benefit. Spurs may still be treating this year as a "development year" with the goal of making the playoffs. They've blasted past that goal so far, so they feel like they have a cushion to experiment, and force feeding Castle and trying to unlock his on-ball creation is one part of the development process. No idea wtf they're doing with Harper's minutes, but if they feel like Harper had a ton of on-ball reps in college, they might try and develop him as an off-ball weapon first, again to have him do something he's not used to to make him a more 'well rounded' player. Personally, I'm not sure why they're not just giving Castle the Dejounte Murray treatment, especially with Mitch's close relationship with Murray and his successful development - have Castle lean into becoming a defensive weapon first, then gradually feed him on-ball touches over time as his jumper improves.

Then once you hit late regular season into the playoffs and the games start mattering, shift a lot more playmaking burden to Fox and dial Castle's on ball usage back to maximize your chances of winning games. Pop teams were famous for having mediocre regular seasons where they'd underperform, then ramping up closer to the playoffs and Mitch may be doing some weird variation of that where he's keeping everyone's minutes down for most of the regular season and slowly ramping up as the season goes on. I don't know, this might be pure cope on my part, we'll see what happens later in the season.

 

[Ice009]

I think once the playoffs start, we'll get the answers to some of these questions.

In theory, Mitch can be doing with Castle exactly what Pop was doing with Sochan - force feed him touches to try and develop him in the regular season to try and unlock something for long term benefit. Spurs may still be treating this year as a "development year" with the goal of making the playoffs. They've blasted past that goal so far, so they feel like they have a cushion to experiment, and force feeding Castle and trying to unlock his on-ball creation is one part of the development process. No idea wtf they're doing with Harper's minutes, but if they feel like Harper had a ton of on-ball reps in college, they might try and develop him as an off-ball weapon first, again to have him do something he's not used to to make him a more 'well rounded' player.

Pretty good theory, you could be right.

Personally, I'm not sure why they're not just giving Castle the Dejounte Murray treatment, especially with Mitch's close relationship with Murray and his successful development - have Castle lean into becoming a defensive weapon first, then gradually feed him on-ball touches over time as his jumper improves.

This is yet another reason why I think there is some sort of agreement. I would have expected them to take a part closer to what they did with Murray than the opposite way. Maybe they really do believe in Castle's potential and are trying to see if the can unlock more of his game.

Then once you hit late regular season into the playoffs and the games start mattering, shift a lot more playmaking burden to Fox and dial Castle's on ball usage back to maximize your chances of winning games. Pop teams were famous for having mediocre regular seasons where they'd underperform, then ramping up closer to the playoffs and Mitch may be doing some weird variation of that where he's keeping everyone's minutes down for most of the regular season and slowly ramping up as the season goes on. I don't know, this might be pure cope on my part, we'll see what happens later in the season.

Well, that sounds good and I hope we get answers before then. The difference is that the Spurs teams with TD were legit playoff teams and contenders and not unknowns like this Spurs team was before the the season started. It's a good strategy if that is the way they're playing it. I'm just not sure they're doing that this time around as they didn't really even know if they're a playoff team before the season started. I'm sure they expected to make the playoffs with all the talent they have, but until proving it on the court, I don't think they were certain of a playoff spot which might have left them open make a promise or two. Hopefully they're doing what you said, though, and are building towards the playoffs and start tightening it up beforehand.

 

[Seventyniner]

In theory, Mitch can be doing with Castle exactly what Pop was doing with Sochan - force feed him touches to try and develop him in the regular season to try and unlock something for long term benefit. Spurs may still be treating this year as a "development year" with the goal of making the playoffs.

That's exactly how it feels to me, except that PG Castle is merely subpar while PG Sochan was a disaster, or a resounding success when it comes to tanking.

 

[Exstatic]

Maybe it is a development thing. I don't know. If there wasn't a promise made, I don't see why Mitch hasn't taken him off the ball (at least a little bit and lowered his usage) this past month while he's been struggling badly in some of those games.

Because they want him to come through this like he did earlier this year. There was a stretch of four games when he had like 40 assist and 4 turnover.

A caterpillar doesn’t enter the chrysalis, slap on wings, and cut his way out. It turns into liquid goo, and is completely remade. Castle will need to drink from a fire hose to make that transition. It is, and will be messy, this force feeding.

 

[Chinook]

How is castle not a core player? The offensive literally runs through him over Fox. I’d say he’s considered core without question.

There's one core player, and that's Wemby. Everyone else is just a potential piece to the puzzle. The Spurs should be using this time to see what works around Victor. If they are, then in my opinion Castle is the third guard despite the team giving him the first crack at things. If the Spurs would say Castle is core with Wemby or not, then I think they're making a mistake, and that such a belief would show the shape of how things are ultimately going to fall apart.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

There's one core player, and that's Wemby. Everyone else is just a potential piece to the puzzle. The Spurs should be using this time to see what works around Victor. If they are, then in my opinion Castle is the third guard despite the team giving him the first crack at things. If the Spurs would say Castle is core with Wemby or not, then I think they're making a mistake, and that such a belief would show the shape of how things are ultimately going to fall apart.

I would consider your take seriously if not for the fact that you have made some really ludicrous points about trading Castle for Bilal Coulibaly. Utterly stupid.

I don't understand this Castle hatred. He is the Spurs' best perimeter defender and he proved that he can guard 1-5 as was seen in the Houston game. He is highly competitive and can play a multiplicity of roles and is a winning player throughout. Having such a tank like player as the No 3/4 option is vital for a squad like the Spurs which is at the cusp of contention.

He has one severe weakness and one problem and both are connected. He is a poor 3p shooter. And he is prone to turnovers because he has to fight within the paint and force the issue many a time.

The former. Will take time for him to improve if at all. But he can use the Jimmy Butler route to become a vital player without the 3p as a key weapon. And he is clearly on track to do so.

The latter. He is already a foul baiter and makes up for his 3p weakness by improving on his effFG% through going to the line regularly.

Combining his other worldly defense with above average playmaking and ability to get to the line he is a vital member of the Wemby core. He and Dylan will be part of the Spurs main 3 for a long time. They just need to surround this core with more shooters like Vassell, Champagnie and Johnson. And they will contend. Fox can be the bridge to that zone.

 

[French Vanilla]

Spurs are not going to do anything to shake the current foundation. I still Barnes is going to re-sign in the offseason. I think the target is a vet big that can provide injury insurance in the playoffs. For whatever reason, the coaching staff has no faith in Sochan and Kelly and Bismack are barely playable.

 

[scott]

I would consider your take seriously if not for the fact that you have made some really ludicrous points about trading Castle for Bilal Coulibaly. Utterly stupid.

I don't understand this Castle hatred. He is the Spurs' best perimeter defender and he proved that he can guard 1-5 as was seen in the Houston game. He is highly competitive and can play a multiplicity of roles and is a winning player throughout. Having such a tank like player as the No 3/4 option is vital for a squad like the Spurs which is at the cusp of contention.

He has one severe weakness and one problem and both are connected. He is a poor 3p shooter. And he is prone to turnovers because he has to fight within the paint and force the issue many a time.

The former. Will take time for him to improve if at all. But he can use the Jimmy Butler route to become a vital player without the 3p as a key weapon. And he is clearly on track to do so.

The latter. He is already a foul baiter and makes up for his 3p weakness by improving on his effFG% through going to the line regularly.

Combining his other worldly defense with above average playmaking and ability to get to the line he is a vital member of the Wemby core. He and Dylan will be part of the Spurs main 3 for a long time. They just need to surround this core with more shooters like Vassell, Champagnie and Johnson. And they will contend. Fox can be the bridge to that zone.

I'm sure there are people who might actually hate Castle... but I think there is a strong contingent of us who just want to see him deployed correctly because we view it as the way to win more games, and maybe we're more optimistic about this team's chances than the team seems to be.

I just hate giving up on success and calling it a "development year" because "Wemby isn't ready". We have the third best record in the league, despite some curious decisions that perhaps have cost us some games, and we've beaten the best team 3 times with a chance for a 4th. Are we a long shot to make a deep run? Sure. But is it impossible? Only if we disqualify ourselves before even giving it a shot.

I do admit that perhaps I'm being shortsighted and the team's decision to force the offense to run through Castle will eventually pay off... but it just seems like there is a more obvious solution, which is to play the PG you acquired and maxed at PG... to play your leader perimeter defender in a way that better suits him on offense... to play your promising young PG more than 20 minutes/game.

If we see some moves towards that after the ASB, I'll be happy.

 

[Ice009]

But is it impossible? Only if we disqualify ourselves before even giving it a shot.

Perfectly said.

I'm sure there are people who might actually hate Castle... but I think there is a strong contingent of us who just want to see him deployed correctly because we view it as the way to win more games, and maybe we're more optimistic about this team's chances than the team seems to be.

Hopefully the Spurs aren't thinking this way about the team's chances. Now that I've finally seen what happens (when TD retired), I don't believe in throwing away chances anymore. They can be very hard to come by, so I'd rather not waste them. No matter how small that chance is, I'd rather take it.

 

[Robz4000]

Sounds like Harden to Cleveland for Garland is about to happen.

 

[Ice009]

Sounds like Harden to Cleveland for Garland is about to happen.

Wow. Who's pushing more for that one between the teams? Would Cleveland want it more or LA Clippers?

 

[Chinook]

I would consider your take seriously if

No, you would not. Saying this is just being dishonest with yourself. You aren't interested in any reasonable discussion about Castle, and you'll label any view that disagrees with you as irrational to protect your belief. This is why you are trying to bring up an unrelated trade idea. It's literally an ad homenim fallacy. This is ignoring that while I've been public about being okay with Castle trades in theory, I've never been a Coulibaly fan. At best, I might have replied in a discussion about that trade to say that Steph isn't untouchable. I could imagine scenarios last year where Bilal were the ballast to match salaries while the real prize was some draft pick or picks. But I've never supported trading Castle straight up for any prospect. Insofar as I've advocated trading him, it's been in place of the team crippling their draft future by moving four firsts ala Cleveland and Minny.

 

[Raven_]

I think people are delusional if they think we can keep our 3 pg monster in 3 years. One of the 3 will have to go, absolutely.

 

[SpursBills]

Sounds like Harden to Cleveland for Garland is about to happen.

Garland is a huge downgrade from Harden even considering age. That OKC Clippers pick suddenly looking good again

 

[Snake Eyes]

Pretty sure I’ve made I’ve made it clear that the Castlw is my fav. For everybody that is busting on the Castle you are totally sleeping on this is a Spurs decision to run him at the point. He’s dealing what the coaching staff is asked. I think it’s pretty obvious as we’ve seen some sets with Fox initiating it is more efficient. This is not a Castel going off scripts or anything. He is obviously very young at the PG and he will get better. But I think we can all agree. He’s probably better suited off the SG and I think that’s where he’s going to land eventually. The team is just trying to get them comfortable running they offense. We’re way ahead of schedule and I think the staff is just trying to figure out what is the best possible way forward. I mean hell Vic looks like crap lately and we know he is the future.

 

[BacktoBasics]

Many months ago it was rumored that Garland would like another opportunity to run a team but who knows what the context of that meant.

 

[Chinook]

The Spurs aren't a piece away from winning, be it, Portis, Aldama, Murphy or whatever. It's not a supporting cast issue. If you put this supporting cast in a cryo chamber for three years and let them play with a seasoned Wemby, they'd be legit title contenders. But those three years are important, and they can't be fixed by making a deal. I feel like most of us have been Spurs fans long enough to know the difference between flashy regular-season teams and contenders. Right now, I'd put the Spurs' chances of being upset in the first round as higher than their chances of winning in the second round, maybe even the third. They're very vulnerable to a more experienced team flipping them, and that's not because of their roster. It's because their best players are too easily rattled and are prone to brain-farting for long stretches.

What's strange is that because of teams like Houston and OKC, I'd feel much more comfortable picking SA to advance if they were in the bottom half of the bracket rather than the two-seed. I'll never not think the Spurs will beat the Rockets, and they match up well with OKC and even Denver. But Phoenix, Memphis, Minny, hell even the Lakers depending on the whistle, are far from safe. With the exception of the Wolves, those other teams should be easy rolls for contenders.

In short, I think if the Spurs' best players are able to lock in and don't make the mental mistakes they're extremely likely to make in their first couple of playoff seasons, I don't think they need to make a trade to be a real contender. If Wemby, Fox, Castle, Johnson and the rest play at a contending level, there isn't a series they're going to lose because they don't have a better third-string center or lack an expensive forward. If those guys shit the bed, then it doesn't matter if they have that expensive player, because they'll be out in the first round. But depending on the assets used, this trade can absolutely lead to missed opportunities down the road, picks that become key players, trade packages that bring the right guy and the right time, salary to keep or sign contributors.

You only get so many shots, and if you fuck them up chasing a window that isn't there yet, it can cripple your team for the entire era. It's just not a good bet at the moment, even ignoring that giving guys like Castle and Harper a chance to be key scorers and getting the intel on Wemby and Fox as a star duo are both really valuable.

 

[Robz4000]

Garland is a huge downgrade from Harden even considering age. That OKC Clippers pick suddenly looking good again

Good news is the Clippers hopefully played themselves into the late lottery already.

 

[poopbox]

Can't believe I am typing this but...is there a way for us to trade for Barlow? He been pretty good on the 76ers

If we him instead of Jeremy we probably have 4 to 6 more wins this season

 

[bozhemoi]

It's impressive watching people convince themselves that Castle is a bad player because they want trades to happen so badly.

 

[Robz4000]

The Spurs aren't a piece away from winning, be it, Portis, Aldama, Murphy or whatever. It's not a supporting cast issue. If you put this supporting cast in a cryo chamber for three years and let them play with a seasoned Wemby, they'd be legit title contenders. But those three years are important, and they can't be fixed by making a deal. I feel like most of us have been Spurs fans long enough to know the difference between flashy regular-season teams and contenders. Right now, I'd put the Spurs' chances of being upset in the first round as higher than their chances of winning in the second round, maybe even the third. They're very vulnerable to a more experienced team flipping them, and that's not because of their roster. It's because their best players are too easily rattled and are prone to brain-farting for long stretches.

What's strange is that because of teams like Houston and OKC, I'd feel much more comfortable picking SA to advance if they were in the bottom half of the bracket rather than the two-seed. I'll never not think the Spurs will beat the Rockets, and they match up well with OKC and even Denver. But Phoenix, Memphis, Minny, hell even the Lakers depending on the whistle, are far from safe. With the exception of the Wolves, those other teams should be easy rolls for contenders.

In short, I think if the Spurs' best players are able to lock in and don't make the mental mistakes they're extremely likely to make in their first couple of playoff seasons, I don't think they need to make a trade to be a real contender. If Wemby, Fox, Castle, Johnson and the rest play at a contending level, there isn't a series they're going to lose because they don't have a better third-string center or lack an expensive forward. If those guys shit the bed, then it doesn't matter if they have that expensive player, because they'll be out in the first round. But depending on the assets used, this trade can absolutely lead to missed opportunities down the road, picks that become key players, trade packages that bring the right guy and the right time, salary to keep or sign contributors.

You only get so many shots, and if you fuck them up chasing a window that isn't there yet, it can cripple your team for the entire era. It's just not a good bet at the moment, even ignoring that giving guys like Castle and Harper a chance to be key scorers and getting the intel on Wemby and Fox as a star duo are both really valuable.

Exactly tbh. That said, want them to at least upgrade third C so they could survive Wemby/Kornet suffering a month-long injury. If this team fails to get that postseason experience it steals a potential year of contention down the line.

 

[bozhemoi]

The Spurs aren't a piece away from winning, be it, Portis, Aldama, Murphy or whatever. It's not a supporting cast issue. If you put this supporting cast in a cryo chamber for three years and let them play with a seasoned Wemby, they'd be legit title contenders. But those three years are important, and they can't be fixed by making a deal. I feel like most of us have been Spurs fans long enough to know the difference between flashy regular-season teams and contenders. Right now, I'd put the Spurs' chances of being upset in the first round as higher than their chances of winning in the second round, maybe even the third. They're very vulnerable to a more experienced team flipping them, and that's not because of their roster. It's because their best players are too easily rattled and are prone to brain-farting for long stretches.

What's strange is that because of teams like Houston and OKC, I'd feel much more comfortable picking SA to advance if they were in the bottom half of the bracket rather than the two-seed. I'll never not think the Spurs will beat the Rockets, and they match up well with OKC and even Denver. But Phoenix, Memphis, Minny, hell even the Lakers depending on the whistle, are far from safe. With the exception of the Wolves, those other teams should be easy rolls for contenders.

In short, I think if the Spurs' best players are able to lock in and don't make the mental mistakes they're extremely likely to make in their first couple of playoff seasons, I don't think they need to make a trade to be a real contender. If Wemby, Fox, Castle, Johnson and the rest play at a contending level, there isn't a series they're going to lose because they don't have a better third-string center or lack an expensive forward. If those guys shit the bed, then it doesn't matter if they have that expensive player, because they'll be out in the first round. But depending on the assets used, this trade can absolutely lead to missed opportunities down the road, picks that become key players, trade packages that bring the right guy and the right time, salary to keep or sign contributors.

You only get so many shots, and if you fuck them up chasing a window that isn't there yet, it can cripple your team for the entire era. It's just not a good bet at the moment, even ignoring that giving guys like Castle and Harper a chance to be key scorers and getting the intel on Wemby and Fox as a star duo are both really valuable.

The Spurs are contenders because there are no convincing contenders in the league other than OKC. Everyone is flawed; there are no great teams. Denver, NYK, Minnesota, Houston, are all capable of winning it. Hell, Detroit could win it.

So, yeah, of course the Spurs are contenders at this point.

 

[Chinook]

It's impressive watching people convince themselves that Castle is a bad player because they want trades to happen so badly.

I feel like channeling my inner Ex, so apologies, but:

You
Don't
Trade
Away
Bad
Players

I don't want a Castle trade to happen, so I don't know if I'm one of the ones you're commenting on. But I feel like it's important to repeat this as much as possible. The Spurs aren't at the point where they're trading main players for "assets" because they don't fit their club. That ended a while ago. The Spurs are at the point where they are considering trading 'for' something, and they need to send out actual value to make that happen. That means decent contracts (because they no longer have a bunch of useless salary on their books from taking salary dumps), key players (especially because those are now the guys making the money), legit prospects or cutting into the quick with their draft picks. It's gonna hurt, regardless of what packages shape up. The only two questions are: 1) Does the return improve the team's intermediate outlook and 2) How can the team negotiate the trade to support their intermediate outlook while still getting the other team to agree.

So whenever the Spurs find themselves in a position to make a big trade, they're gonna have to consider how to put out a package that helps them improve while still getting the other team to agree. If Castle were a bad player, he'd be unable to fulfill any role other than ballast. Instead, he's actually a blue-chip prospect, and by himself might out-value the combined total of the team's 2026, 2028, 2030 and 2032 picks. That's incredibly valuable, and the team would need to spend that asset very wisely, be it through keeping him or trading him. Castle's value is only a snapshot of his reputation right now. So if the team keeps him, trades the picks and then realizes Castle is the odd man out or doesn't develop correctly, there's a real loss of value there that could lead to a cascade of negative outcomes.

That's why the team should still be in evaluation mode rather than married to Castle, Harper or even Fox at this time.

 

[scott]

If you don't think Wemby "is ready" and we still need to see what works with him... you'd think you'd want to make moves around the edges that don't leave obvious holes for the pieces we do have to overcome in order to find out what works. Going into the playoffs with a massive hole at PF (for example) doesn't help you understand what works with the rest of the roster... it just leaves you with questions about what the rest of the roster could achieve without that huge hole at PF. I agree you probably don't want to go out and spend 3 FRPs on a second-rate solution at PF just because it's the best one available... but there's also no reason to not use your large surplus of SRPs (which you've proven to not have much an interest in utilizing in the draft) to get a rental or take a flyer on a potential solution.

With that said, who knows if there are any actual meaningful solutions at PF this deadline. Seems like the Spurs have identified a few third string C options that won't cost much, so that's good. And I appreciate that the Spurs are balking at having to have an extra year of bum ass Yabu just because they can.