Trade Spurs Trade Ideas

[scott]

Sorry I'm not giving up on Castle at age 20 with all he has shown us so far. He screams Alvin Robertson 2.0. Spurs would have to be getting an insane return back and I'm not talking Markannen who I don't think will look all that great as a third option on a winning team, or even a second option. 6'7" initiators who are also uber athletic and high end defenders don't grow on trees.

Castle aside, I have to disagree with your assessment of Markkanen. I think he's the kind of player best equipped to look good shifting down to a second or third option based on his style of play. A few years ago when there were the Lauri trade rumors, I put together this data, and Lauri was by far the most efficient scorer per USG in the entire league. SGA was second but there was a big gap between them. Granted, this is 2023-24 data, but Lauri is still that kind of player. He'd be the almost ideal 3rd scorer after Wemby and a high USG guard, IMO.

Whether or not he's worth the cost to acquire him (or his contract) is another question... but I don't think there is a cleaner fit in the entire league for what we "need"

 

[scott]

Another fun chart from that same Data Set. Maybe when I get some time I'll rerun these charts with updated data.

 

[BacktoBasics]

Fox
George
Bailey
Dybantza/Boozer/Wilson
Kessler

Would be a nice squad for Utah

Small sample size but Kessler was looking like he was really coming around before that injury.

 

[Kick-Stand]

Same. Far too soon to give up on Castle/Harper and the possibility of those two playing together at a high level tbh.

Not trying to act like Steph is untradeable (only Victor is), but I gotta be going up a tier on the player to consider trading Steph. Especially since Steph is on a cheap rookie deal and his next extension is unlikely to be for more than 25% of the cap. And I see Steph as conservatively a top 20-25 player in two to three years. About the only serious option I can think of where I'd seriously consider moving Castle would be if Curry told the Warriors to trade him to a contender.

 

[Kick-Stand]

Castle aside, I have to disagree with your assessment of Markkanen. I think he's the kind of player best equipped to look good shifting down to a second or third option based on his style of play. A few years ago when there were the Lauri trade rumors, I put together this data, and Lauri was by far the most efficient scorer per USG in the entire league. SGA was second but there was a big gap between them. Granted, this is 2023-24 data, but Lauri is still that kind of player. He'd be the almost ideal 3rd scorer after Wemby and a high USG guard, IMO.

Whether or not he's worth the cost to acquire him (or his contract) is another question... but I don't think there is a cleaner fit in the entire league for what we "need"

View attachment 573

I can't help but think of Cleveland Markannen when I think of Markannen as a third option.

 

[scott]

I can't help but think of Cleveland Markannen when I think of Markannen as a third option.

CLE Markkanen was *9th* on the team in FGA/36 and still averaged 15ppg on 45/36/87 shooting splits (.582 TS%)

His 11.5 FGA/36 in CLE would rank 10th on the team here, and he'd basically be putting up Devin Vassell's stats more efficiently (.559 TS%). You'd hope you'd find a way to utilize him more effectively... but then again, we traded for Fox to make him a spot up 3pt shooter, so that's probably assuming too much of this coaching staff.

 

[gospursgo91]

Would love to get Simone Fontecchio as a sharp shooter and Keegan Murray as our starting PF

 

[Kick-Stand]

CLE Markkanen was *9th* on the team in FGA/36 and still averaged 15ppg on 45/36/87 shooting splits (.582 TS%)

His 11.5 FGA/36 in CLE would rank 10th on the team here, and he'd basically be putting up Devin Vassell's stats more efficiently (.559 TS%). You'd hope you'd find a way to utilize him more effectively... but then again, we traded for Fox to make him a spot up 3pt shooter, so that's probably assuming to much of this coaching staff.

Not trading Castle for a more efficient Vassell. Markannen doesn't make this a title team in the short term and in the long term he's nowhere close to what Castle projects to be and that's what it would take to get him.

 

[gospursgo91]

 

[ambchang]

I followed this guy last season and the previous offseason. He always claimed to have sources and knew what the Spurs were "thinking" and what moves they were going to make. None of them ever materialized. Needless to say, I don't follow him any more. lol

The takes are straight getting random stuff we post here, and taking the worst of those ideas, wait 3 months when even the person who first came up with him are walking back in them.

 

[scott]

Not trading Castle for a more efficient Vassell. Markannen doesn't make this a title team in the short term and in the long term he's nowhere close to what Castle projects to be and that's what it would take to get him.

It appears that you missed the point on Markkanen (yeah, you definitely don't trade for him to give him the 10th most attempts/36 on the team, just behind Carter Bryant) ... but I also don't think I'm as optimistic on what "Castle projects to be" as you are.

In any event, it doesn't matter, since this FO has evidently decided Castle is going to be our guy. Not sure what the point of trading for Fox was if that was going to be the case, but here we are.

 

[k....]

I'd trade victor for a center who can set screens and defend passably. we would be giving up the best defensive player but are you really going to be satisfied with rudy gobert 2? it was fun to avoid the destiny but if victor is always tweening between durant and mutombo we cant build a team around it fast enough, and it may be a one ring franchise like giannis. What good is the best defensive player if we lose to random teams? will wemby really raise the bar in the playoffs or be exposed with even more focused defenses. people blame mitch for not designing an offense, but holy hell there may not be an offense for a lanky tall weak slow dude.

There is good talent but it's not coming together and "i hope he learns to shoot" is spinning the wheels and frittering away prime winning years. get a big who knows his place not a diva freelancer.

in conclusion wemby is a generational player but doesn't fit in the nba game. wemby is the cyber truck of the NBA,
\
NICO flew so Brian Write could reach the sun.

 

[Kick-Stand]

It appears that you missed the point on Markkanen (yeah, you definitely don't trade for him to give him the 10th most attempts/36 on the team, just behind Carter Bryant) ... but I also don't think I'm as optimistic on what "Castle projects" to be than you are.

In any event, it doesn't matter, since this FO has evidently decided Castle is going to be our guy. Not sure what the point of trading for Fox was if that was going to be the case, but here we are.

He's ridiculously athletic, has great size, and seems to have both the tools and the desire to be a really high end defensive player. Plus he has point guard skills. I don't see him as the primary initiator (that's going to be Harper) but I do think he should be getting a lot of reps as an initiator right now. My only concern with Steph is his shooting, and while signs are so far discouraging on that front all that's needed for him to become a devastating player is that he's not a total liability you don't have to guard. Steph is talented in too many areas for me to move him for a much less versatile player in Markannen.

 

[scott]

He's ridiculously athletic, has great size, and seems to have both the tools and the desire to be a really high end defensive player. Plus he has point guard skills. I don't see him as the primary initiator (that's going to be Harper) but I do think he should be getting a lot of reps as an initiator right now. My only concern with Steph is his shooting, and while signs are so far discouraging on that front all that's needed for him to become a devastating player is that he's not a total liability you don't have to guard. Steph is talented in too many areas for me to move him for a much less versatile player in Markannen.

Castle can't shoot for shit and is kind of stupid at times. The statistical similarities to Westbrook are quite stunning, and not in a good way.

There's the less optimistic take on it.

Markkanen may be less versatile on offense (actually, he's probably not), but his skill set is actually a lot more valuable and useful in the NBA.

Defense on the other hand, yeah, Steph has him beat by a mile. The Spurs can just go ahead and lean into what Steph strengths are on offense right now if they wanted to. Until they do that, or even show a hint that they'll ever be willing to do that, I'm less convinced that they will. They seem pretty committed to utilizing all three of Fox, Castle and Harper in the most suboptimal way possible, for reasons that I'm not smart enough to understand apparently.

 

[Kick-Stand]

Castle can't shoot for shit and is kind of stupid at times.

There's the less optimistic take on it.

Victor is pretty stupid at times too but I'm not moving him for anyone. Castle can't shoot for shit is indeed true and if it doesn't improve his floor is probably Super Caruso. Which is still a pretty valuable player who you could then pay role player money to.

 

[scott]

I'll say this as a big Fox fan and proponent of acquiring him:

Right now, because of the way they've decided to misuse him, the trade to get him looks like one of the biggest mistakes this front office has made and that includes drafting Primo over Sengun and Sochan over JDub.

People will counter by saying "but he was so cheap, we couldn't pass it up!" But the price is irrelevant if you're going to use him in the worst possible way.

It's like buying a $10MM mansion at foreclosure because it was "so cheap you can't pass up" but then never living in it, never renting it out, and not selling it and then getting hit with a $300,000 property tax bill.

 

[BacktoBasics]

Castle can't shoot for shit and is kind of stupid at times.

There's the less optimistic take on it.

Markkanen may be less versatile on offense (actually, he's probably not), but his skill set is actually a lot more valuable and useful in the NBA.

Defense on the other hand, yeah, Steph has him beat by a mile. The Spurs can just go ahead and lean into what Steph strengths are on offense right now if they wanted to. Until they do that, or even show a hint that they'll ever be willing to do that, I'm less convinced that they will. They seem pretty committed to utilizing all three of Fox, Castle and Harper in the most suboptimal way possible, for reasons that I'm not smart enough to understand apparently.

As far as him being stupid. I was thinking this lately but some of it is that he doesn’t get the same whistles that proven players get.

A lot of his drives that end up in a TO or desperation miss after contact would be two FTs for a more established player.

It happens quite a bit and gives the illusion that he’s a poor finisher. It’s making him less efficient too. But I think he’s right to challenge players at the rim with these drives.

Two years from now that improves and probably gets more calls too.

I got no excuses for his jumper. It’s not like it’s broken. Practice

 

[scott]

Victor is pretty stupid at times too but I'm not moving him for anyone. Castle can't shoot for shit is indeed true and if it doesn't improve his floor is probably Super Caruso. Which is still a pretty valuable player who you could then pay role player money to.

Yeah, Victor is considerably better than Castle. The amount of stupidity you can tolerate is directly proportional to your talent level. For example: we are right to no longer tolerate any stupidity from Sochan.

 

[scott]

As far as him being stupid. I was thinking this lately but some of it is that he doesn’t get the same whistles that proven players get.

A lot of his drives that end up in a TO or desperation miss after contact would be two FTs for a more established player.

It happens quite a bit and gives the illusion that he’s a poor finisher. It’s making him look less efficient too. But I think he’s right to challenge players at the rim with these drives.

Two years from now that improves and probably gets more calls too.

I forgot who posted it or maybe it was a tweet but "Steph thinks he's SGA but the refs don't" was very on-point.

It's a fair point... but at some point after the 10th non-call and getting your shit rejected, the blame goes on the player for continuing to go back to that well. Steph also sucks at FTs, so it's not like getting to the line is even the most efficient use of a possession either

[Note: I'm actually not this down on Castle, I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate here... my preference is that we keep all 3 of Fox, Castle and Harper and just... you know... use them correctly]

 

[scott]

Victor is pretty stupid at times too but I'm not moving him for anyone. Castle can't shoot for shit is indeed true and if it doesn't improve his floor is probably Super Caruso. Which is still a pretty valuable player who you could then pay role player money to.

Well, part of the art of trading is dealing guys at the absolute optimal time. We did it with DJM. We sold too early on Derrick, but I understand why we did it (and maybe he doesn't blossom until he goes to BOS either way). How many people wouldn't have traded Sochan earlier because they thought he'd amount to something at some point? I know there is at least that Clan The Spurs Fan clown who said Sochan was the dealbreaker in a Markannen trade two summers ago

Would suck to have passed up on a huge return to end up with a "Super Caruso". BTW, Caruso is a career 37% 3P shooter. He's having a career worst 30.1% this year... let's see if Castle can at least get to Caruso's career worst first...

 

[Kick-Stand]

Well, part of the art of trading is dealing guys at the absolute optimal time. We did it with DJM. We sold too early on Derrick, but I understand why we did it (and maybe he doesn't blossom until he goes to BOS either way). How many people wouldn't have traded Sochan earlier because they thought he'd amount to something at some point? I know there is at least that Clan The Spurs Fan clown who said Sochan was the dealbreaker in a Markannen trade two summers ago

Would suck to have passed up on a huge return to end up with a "Super Caruso". BTW, Caruso is a career 37% 3P shooter. He's having a career worst 30.1% this year... let's see if Castle can at least get to Caruso's career worst first...

You have a membership to a site that has really detailed stats right? I'm curious what Castle's three point shooting is like off the dribble vs catch and shoot. The threes he fires off the dribble early in the shot clock are the ones that make me want to pull out my fucking hair. Just wondering how much of Castle's awful three point shooting is due to terrible shot selection or if he's just as shitty when taking good threes.

 

[mo7888]

You have a membership to a site that has really detailed stats right? I'm curious what Castle's three point shooting is like off the dribble vs catch and shoot. The threes he fires off the dribble early in the shot clock are the ones that make me want to pull out my fucking hair. Just wondering how much of Castle's awful three point shooting is due to terrible shot selection or if he's just as shitty when taking good threes.

That's an excellent question and the answer will say alot about his projection..

 

[Kick-Stand]

I forgot who posted it or maybe it was a tweet but "Steph thinks he's SGA but the refs don't" was very on-point.

It's a fair point... but at some point after the 10th non-call and getting your shit rejected, the blame goes on the player for continuing to go back to that well. Steph also sucks at FTs, so it's not like getting to the line is even the most efficient use of a possession either

[Note: I'm actually not this down on Castle, I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate here... my preference is that we keep all 3 of Fox, Castle and Harper and just... you know... use them correctly]

I guess we have different priorities on correct usage. To me correct usage is developing Steph as an initiator. It's not like he's Point Sochan or anything. I am very much content to trade losses today for wins tomorrow when Wemby isn't ready to lead a title team. I'd probably have a whole different view here if Victor was like the Victor we saw opening night in Dallas that made you think wow he really could be the #1 on a title team right now. Then I'd be furious Fox wasn't running point every possession he was in like you are. But this has always been a season that should focus on growth for me other than the immediate aftermath of the Dallas game where Wemby looked like a cross between Bill Russell and Michael Jordan and I had Larry O'Briens dancing in my head.

 

[Kick-Stand]

That's an excellent question and the answer will say alot about his projection..

Yeah I'm really curious if it's like 26% on pull ups vs 29% on catch and shoot threes or if it's something insane like 17% on pull ups vs say 33% on catch and shoot. The pull up threes drive me nuts and should IMO never be part of Steph's game. I swear I can't even remember one going in since the huge one he hit at the end of the game in LA but I could be biased and judging on feels here, I don't know without the hard numbers.

 

[scott]

You have a membership to a site that has really detailed stats right? I'm curious what Castle's three point shooting is like off the dribble vs catch and shoot. The threes he fires off the dribble early in the shot clock are the ones that make me want to pull out my fucking hair. Just wondering how much of Castle's awful three point shooting is due to terrible shot selection or if he's just as shitty when taking good threes.

I don't have a membership to any sites, but lemme see what I can find... I'm going to move that reply to the Castle thread and I'll tag you and mo in the reply.