Analysis Spurs Rotation Players w vs. w/o Wemby

[ambchang]

OK, 20 games in:

​

Player​

Wemby​

Mins​

ORtg​

DRtg​

NetRtg​

USG%​

TS%​

AST%​

REB%​

STL%​

BLK%​

TO%​

PPP​

Wemby​

N/A​

415​

117.85​

107.23​

10.62​

31.41​

60.86​

19.43​

20.89​

1.54​

10.39​

5.55​

1.04​

Fox​

On​

122​

119.23​

114.23​

5​

26.81​

59.72​

22.62​

7.14​

1.72​

0.86​

6.61​

0.95​

Fox​

Off​

304​

123.5​

118.45​

5.05​

32.73​

62.05​

32.98​

5.44​

2.3​

0.81​

5.04​

1.09​

Vassell​

On​

264​

121.39​

102.5​

18.89​

14.41​

52.18​

7.08​

5.34​

1.98​

0.74​

1.38​

0.96​

Vassell​

Off​

423​

118.79​

120.87​

-2.08​

23.1​

58.32​

12.23​

7.1​

1.43​

1.35​

1.91​

1.09​

Castle​

On​

290​

118.12​

104.25​

13.88​

21.91​

61.9​

31.68​

11.52​

2.36​

0.67​

5.69​

0.98​

Castle​

Off​

125​

110.9​

116.96​

-6.06​

32.23​

52.61​

44.87​

7.41​

3.57​

1.31​

8.37​

0.83​

Barnes​

On​

273​

116.99​

111.23​

5.76​

13.93​

69.29​

10.71​

5.59​

1.36​

1.05​

2.78​

1.16​

Barnes​

Off​

376​

123.54​

120.67​

2.86​

18.23​

62.2​

9.39​

6.75​

2.14​

0.22​

1.85​

1.14​

Champaigne​

On​

237​

117.21​

108.03​

9.19​

15.13​

58.97​

6.18​

10.11​

2.67​

1.65​

2.25​

1.04​

Champaigne​

Off​

360​

121.31​

117.73​

3.58​

16.51​

57.98​

6.41​

11.15​

0.97​

1.35​

2.18​

1.03​

​

Player​

Wemby​

Mins​

ORtg​

DRtg​

NetRtg​

USG%​

TS%​

AST%​

REB%​

STL%​

BLK%​

TO%​

PPP​

Harper​

On​

78​

128.34​

87.04​

41.3​

24.5​

64.17​

21.15​

8.39​

2.1​

0​

3.65​

1.14​

Harper​

Off​

156​

124.63​

136.47​

-11.84​

28.08​

55.09​

27.18​

8.3​

3.09​

0​

3.97​

0.98​

Keldon​

On​

174​

113.34​

103.04​

10.3​

15.7​

61.56​

12.5​

12.85​

1.54​

0.63​

1.86​

1.12​

Keldon​

Off​

337​

121.92​

121.48​

0.44​

20.53​

67.49​

10.81​

16.19​

1.68​

0​

2.42​

1.23​

Sochan​

On​

47​

111.68​

131.15​

-19.47​

14.62​

64.39​

11.11​

13.16​

2.33​

0​

3.57​

1.05​

Sochan​

Off​

199​

116.61​

120.97​

-4.36​

16.9​

55.93​

13.67​

12.65​

1.57​

12.8​

2.67​

0.98​

McLaughlin​

On​

62​

115.35​

120.13​

-4.77​

15.47​

50​

16.67​

3.85​

5.13​

0​

1.79​

0.91​

McLaughlin​

Off​

11​

163.42​

163.42​

0​

75.19​

20​

5.88​

4.35​

0​

0​

0​

1.5​

Bryant​

On​

27​

123.73​

111.56​

12.17​

23.57​

67.57​

0​

4.55​

0​

3.7​

6.98​

1.01​

Bryant​

Off​

96​

114.09​

111.65​

2.44​

15.92​

38.09​

1.3​

12.44​

2.14​

0.89​

1.6​

0.7​

Kornet​

On​

45​

111.23​

104.63​

6.61​

15.53​

82.76​

14.81​

12.12​

0​

2.33​

0​

1.66​

Kornet​

Off​

303​

121.05​

114.71​

6.35​

9.59​

66.6​

12​

12.31​

0.66​

5.79​

1.72​

1.14​

Olynyk​

On​

8​

89.74​

147.44​

-57.69​

5.62​

100​

50​

7.69​

0​

0​

0​

2​

Olynyk​

Off​

115​

119.73​

114.25​

5.48​

17.84​

62.5​

19.77​

13.49​

1.81​

0​

5.09​

0.97​

Just looking at the overall numbers, these seem to have been pretty consistent with we have observed in games. That:
- Vassell seems to have regressed since a good start to the season,
- Keldon is a very positve force and an absolute demon on the boards
- Barnes is about the most effieicnt player in the lague right now.
- Champaigne is playing well with or without Wemby, and that he is rebounding the ball very well. 11% REB% for a wing is very impressive.
- Sochan is playing like absolute dog shit, I mean just ghastly. I am surprised his TO% isn't way higher.
- Kornet is the real deal.
- Olynk seems to have gotten slightly better after a slow start.

What is surprising:
- Castle's net rating without wemby and his PPP numbers are surprisingly low. Yes, he got hurt and hasn't really played with Wemby after the first 10 games (or without for that matter) so hoping he will come back and ramp it back up.
- Harper is -11.84 without Wemby? How? he has been playing very well and my memory probably isn't serving me well. His PPP is also <1 w/o Wemby, which is a surprise.

 

[scott]

FYI @ambchang , the column headers on the top half the graph are offset -1, which confused me for a minute before I figured it out

 

[ambchang]

Thanks Scott.

Spent a bit more time looking at the numbers, and a few more observations, and keep in mind the time with Wemby is not fully reflective of the state of the matter as he's been out for so long:
- Everybody's DRtg w/o Wemby drops off, except Sochan and Olynk, who both played very little with Wemby. Not a surprise at all.
- More importantly, how is the offence running with Wemby ON the floor? Because one thing that is getting to become a bigger and bigger elephant in the room isn't how the defence would work, because everybody can work well with Wemby on D, but how the O would work?
Players who have better ORtgs with Wemby off the court : Fox (+4.27), Barnes (+6.55), Champaigne (+3.9), Keldon (+8.58), Sochan (+4.93), Kornet (surprising, really, +9.82) and Olynyk (+19.99).
Players who have worse ORtgs with Wemby off the court: Vassell (-2.6), Castle (-0.67), Harper (-3.71), Bryant (-9.64).
*all numbers approximate as I am just doing it mentally while typing this out

It's interesting that more players have better ORtgs w/o Wemby on the floor than with, but the Spurs actually has an ORtg of 117.4 (would've ranked 11th in the league vs. 8th right now) w Wemby but 120.7 w/o (5th). DRtg though is an entirely different story with 108.6 (2nd vs. 10th now) w but 118.5 (24th) w/o. This does point out to one thing that we have all known/suspected for a while, that the Spurs offence stalls with Wemby to an extent. Obviously this doesn't mean not play Wemby, it just means that the offence we were running with Wemby isn't the most effective. The numbers are a bit of a mystery as we rebound, shoot and pass better with Wemby on the floor, where the only notable negative difference is an increase in TOV% (up 3.5% with Wemby), and that again works with the crowded court theory, but also was likely impacted by Castle's early season TO troubles. MATFO has to find a way to design an offence using Wemby's talents, but perhaps putting the ball in the trio of PG's hands, while having Wemby finishing is a better strategy now.

- On defence, the Spurs are ass without Wemby, just like last year, and the year before, and the year before that. Just that we are now less ass, as in we are only bottom quartile and just at the cusp of bottom quintile of the league, rather than historically bad without Wemby, so there is some improvement there.
- Fox operates well with or without Wemby, which is great. Yes, limited minutes, etc ...
- Vassell, man, I know a lot of talk about him coming off the bench, but if these numbers are accurate, no, doesn't work.
- Castle and Harper both played significantly better with Wemby. I don't see a 3 PG starting lineup, but if their minutes could be staggered with Fox having more time on his own or only one of the two, while Castle and Harper play off each other, it may work. Castle's numbers w/o Wemby and Fox, but with Harper are pretty bad (-11.36 on only 26 minutes) and ditto Harper (-11.51 on 142 mins) but this could be worked on with Barnes, Korndog and Champaigne around them, finishing lobs and open 3s.
- Barnes and Champaigne both work well with or without Wemby, but surprisingly worse on O. I would've thought they would get more open 3s with Wemby in there, but perhaps it's more a reason for Wemby to park his butt in the paint.
- Keldon can't defend without Wemby, but lineups with him can certainly score. He is really embracing his bench role and is working very well.
- Sochan is just horrible all around, but less bad with Wemby on the bench. I don't know, he has to get his game from last year back, and quick. I was expecting improvement early this year, now I am just hoping for no regression or even less regression.
- Bryant is coming along nicely, just absolutely horrifying offensively without Wemby (PPP of 0.7) but he is doing a lot of good things on D and improving on O.
- I am really surprised Kornet is doing the same with or without Wemby. O a lot better, but D a lot worse. I thought he would be better on O and D w Wemby.
- Olynyk seems to be rounding into form. I still see him as someone who can do a lot of good for this team.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

Are there any numbers for our defensive rating with Kornet at C without Wemby? I think our DRtg dropping is mainly due to having to play smallball bench line ups

 

[ambchang]

Are there any numbers for our defensive rating with Kornet at C without Wemby? I think our DRtg dropping is mainly due to having to play smallball bench line ups

It’s 114.71. Not great but not horrible either. I’m assuming all kornet mins are at center.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

Thanks for the numbers, @ambchang. I will say this about Harper. Playing him a lot with Sochan is criminal. The kid is a natural P&R whizkid and will thrive wonderfully with a big who can set some good screens and roll or pop and can be a menace in two man game sets. Surround this set with shooters and cutters and Harper will be a demon with his innate passing and downhill ability allowing for drive and kick passes to the perimeter. It doesn't surprise me that his rating with Wemby is so high. I think it will be quite good with Kornet too.

Unfortunately with Wemby injured and Kornet playing in the SL, Harper has to share a bulk of minutes with the offensive black hole named Jeremy Sochan who is neither a low block center nor a post up threat, an abysmal shooter and also not a roller..it's just a shame how much Sochan has become a liability. I mean..he can at least be a high post passer or a roller but he isn't that either. The only thing he offers is transition offense and cutting ..and that has reduced ever since he has been asked to play backup Center because of his dreadful shooting.

I can't wait for Wemby to be back and for Harp to play more with Kornet and him. He will be Manu-like and it will allow him to slowly improve other parts of his game - pull up shooting, isos etc instead of rushing into these because opponents are packing the paint with Sochan being around.

 

[ambchang]

Haven't updated this in a while as I was just busy, given it's all star break, perhaps it's a good time. 54 games in ...

​

Player​

Wemby​

Mins​

ORtg​

DRtg​

NetRtg​

USG%​

TS%​

AST%​

REB%​

STL%​

BLK%​

TO%​

PPP​

Wemby​

N/A​

1126​

120.13​

107.67​

+12.46​

33.26​

62.02​

15.83​

20.69​

1.68​

8.77​

4.83​

1.09​

Fox​

On​

621​

119.93​

110.35​

+9.58​

21.15​

53.88​

30.54​

5.16​

2.01​

0.93​

4.09​

0.91​

Fox​

Off​

1403​

118.98​

118.07​

+0.91​

28.77​

59.66​

28.34​

7.19​

2.13​

0.64​

3.99​

1.06​

Vassell​

On​

534​

123.01​

104.24​

+18.77​

14.77​

54.03​

7.73​

6.41​

1.47​

1.04​

1.48​

0.99​

Vassell​

Off​

726​

119.24​

117.53​

+1.71​

22.2​

55.5​

12.04​

7.00​

1.39​

1.2​

1.58​

1.05​

Castle​

On​

731​

118.37​

107.16​

+11.21​

21.62​

60.88​

32.75​

8.14​

2.45​

1.32​

4.59​

1.00​

Castle​

Off​

556​

111.69​

112.29​

-0.59​

30.84​

52.06​

36.39​

9.82​

1.96​

0.58​

7.81​

0.83​

Barnes​

On​

664​

120.65​

110.59​

+10.05​

13.56​

64.75​

10.32​

5.04​

1.02​

0.84​

1.94​

1.14​

Barnes​

Off​

812​

118.49​

115.44​

+3.05​

16.56​

56.91​

9.76​

6.4​

1.42​

0.5​

1.6​

1.05​

Champaigne​

On​

699​

123.24​

107.4​

+15.84​

13.71​

61.96​

6.45​

11.36​

1.49​

1.69​

1.68​

1.12​

Champaigne​

Off​

773​

117.7​

115.8​

+1.91​

17.43​

57.79​

6.59​

11.95​

1.45​

0.97​

1.96​

1.05​

Keldon​

On​

458​

119.05​

106.43​

+12.62​

17.59​

63.18​

9.01​

12.54​

1.27​

0.23​

1.53​

1.18​

Keldon​

Off​

796​

117.36​

115.97​

+1.39​

21.58​

65.58​

8.41​

14.01​

1.56​

0.65​

2.66​

1.18​

Harper​

On​

318​

124.89​

95.72​

+29.17​

19.21​

61.18​

21.52​

9.29​

2.25​

0.94​

2.55​

1.09​

Harper​

Off​

599​

115.11​

116.81​

-1.7​

24.85​

49.61​

25.8​

7.77​

1.84​

1.41​

3.68​

0.87​

Bryant​

On​

125​

115.43​

112.26​

+3.17​

16.98​

63.2​

7.23​

10.53​

0.8​

2.92​

1.79​

1.16​

Bryant​

Off​

257​

110.31​

115.62​

-5.31​

18.78​

40.49​

3.78​

11.73​

1.41​

1.34​

1.86​

0.75​

Korndog​

On​

82​

108.36​

104.83​

+3.53​

14.5​

79.07​

11.76​

12.22​

0​

2.63​

0​

1.58​

Korndog​

Off​

922​

116.67​

111.9​

+4.77​

10.12​

67.53​

11.08​

14.85​

1.15​

4.57​

1.07​

1.24​

Sochan​

On​

74​

109.04​

119.68​

-10.64​

12.88​

57.29​

10.87​

10.16​

2.19​

1.47​

2.24​

0.99​

Sochan​

Off​

278​

109.03​

120.6​

-11.57​

15.86​

53.51​

11.76​

12.17​

1.32​

1.2​

2.85​

0.91​

​

Comments to come.

 

[Neuromancer]

Wemby and Harper are our future

 

[scott]

Thanks for the update @ambchang!

Something that stands out to me right away - the DRTG with guys who aren't traditionally thought of as defenders - Fox, Barnes, Keldon in particular - is still quite good when paired with Wemby.

I'd be interested in the counter-side to this table, Wemby's on-off with each player. I had something that kind of did this in this thread: https://baselinebums.com/threads/two-man-wowy-combination-tracker.265/, but honestly it is too time consuming for me to try to update at this point.

 

[ambchang]

So time to type this thing out on the phone ….

• No surprises, every single player benefited from playing with wemby, except … korndog. I’ve always thought a big on big pick and roll with wemby and korndog will be unstoppable, maybe not … having both of them on the floor together just mucks il the offence, especially when we don’t have shooters around them.
• Harper is surprisingly bad on d-rating without Wemby. So I looks up harper with korndog but without wemby and the drating went down to a respectable 112.15. All those minutes with biyimbo and sochan protecting the rim must have not worked.
• Sochan was the only one listed here with -ve net ratings with or without Wemby. Granted, he played ridiculously low amounts with wemby (less than Jordan Mc) and the minutes he had without Wemby were horrible lineups. His main strengths are just replaced by other players with more to offer this year. Keldon and champaigne are rebounding so much better this year, everyone is defending the perimeter better, but especially castle. And now Bryant is coming on strong.
• Fox without Wemby can still carry an offence but the defence isn’t good.
• Wembys assist % is really good for a centre.
• I’m not a huge fan of fox’s usage rate with wemby. I still think the ball should got through him more even when Wembys on the floor
• Castles usage without Wemby is quite high and it corroborates with eye tests. I would like to see a more balanced attack when wemby is off the floor.
• Barnes must be some sort of magician, his numbers look surprisingly good
• Keldon definitely turned the corner. So did Vassell.
• Vassell should buy something for Wemby for valentines. He looks so much better with wemby on the floor.
• Champaigne is such a good complementary player for Wemby.