Player Sochan's Extension Watch

[Seventyniner]

As I said, it's down to Jeremy being more or less the same player he was a couple of years ago.
If there's no growth in a pressure free environment Spurs were over these past few years, I don't think there will be now that it's competing time.

This is the part I don't get. Where did this narrative come from? Most stats, basic and advanced, say Sochan was significantly better in year 3 than in years 1-2.

 

[LeBowen]

This is the part I don't get. Where did this narrative come from? Most stats, basic and advanced, say Sochan was significantly better in year 3 than in years 1-2.

He learned to be better in his very limited role.
Cuts better, gets more easy baskets, offensive rebounding is his best attribute.
Obviously no jumpshot improvement, his post game is non-existant and he can't finish efficently enough over defenders unless there's a big size mismatch.
Most of his points come from the fact that he's the player left wide open by design. I don't hink having such a player on the floor is good on our team.

 

[Ariel]

This is the part I don't get. Where did this narrative come from? Most stats, basic and advanced, say Sochan was significantly better in year 3 than in years 1-2.

He's better at picking his spots, basically does more of what he can do (cutting, hustling, rebounding) and less of what he can't (shooting, creating for himself, trying high level passes). That will translate to efficiency increases, but limits you to a small supporting role, you have to be outlier good on other aspects of your game to warrant a starting role with those limitations.

 

[Exstatic]

I disagree with his take that we'll miss the playoffs, but you can't say he's wrong when it comes to what we've seen from Keldon/Devin/Jeremy over these past years.
Numbers don't even matter when we played better without them in both 23-24 and 24-25 with inferior players like Wesley, Branham, Champ and Mamu getting their minutes.

They got the benefit of the doubt because Spurs were a dysfunctional, losing team over the past years, but this is their last chance.
I just hope Pop won't be able to influence Mitch and that Mitch will have the authority to bench and even DNP them when they're not doing what's required of them.

Fox/Harper/Castle guard rotation.
Champ/Barnes/Bryant/Olynyk wing rotation without friendship crew.

We most definitely don't need all three of them and I don't see how all three manage to stay on the roster long term.

If you’re looking to support a negative that you might feel about a player,or players, KA is your guy. Don’t ever look for the positive, though. It doesn’t exist in his world. I consider both KA and Schmurs to be trolls, because they never even have one positive thing to say about the team or its players.

 

[spurraider21]

I’m giving him all 1 grades because availability is the best ability tbh

 

[LeBowen]

If you’re looking to support a negative that you might feel about a player,or players, KA is your guy. Don’t ever look for the positive, though. It doesn’t exist in his world. I consider both KA and Schmurs to be trolls, because they never even have one positive thing to say about the team or its players.

KA has a lot of positive things to say if it excludes friendship crew.
Shmurs is a Wemby fan and also higly rates Harper.

 

[Shmurs]

Yeah this is weird. I really revile the culture of the friendship crew and all the BS that the last 2 years have brought but this is the team to watch and root for in the NBA because of Wemby, Harper, Castle, Fox and sure some of the energy from the Keldon’s of the world.

I’m easily triggered by Sochan and will let it get the best of me but I get joy from watching the spurs play and want them to get better. The trolling is simply me not having self control over my hobby horse.

 

[Bruno]

The issue with Sochan isn't his level, it is that he is a really bad fit offensively with this year's team.

Giving him an extension given that would be very risky and with the Fox extension, Spurs aren't in a situation where they can give between $15M and $20M per year to a player who might turn useless because of his lack of shooting.

 

[LeBowen]

As for positivity about friendship crew, let's put things into context.
Spurs are obviously set at guard and big positions, the only thing this roster is lacking are legit wings.

Here's a list of wings on reasonable contracts that would surely be a big upgrade over last season's iterations of friendship crew, rookie contracts excluded:
Dort
Hachimura
Gordon
Cam Johnson
McDaniels
Naz Reid
Aldama
PJ Washington
Dillon Brooks
Avdija
Trey Murphy
Herb Jones
Hunter
Bridges
Josh Hart
Nesmith
Alexander Walker
Norman Powell

Any of those players replacing the corresponding friendship crew member would be a guaranteed upgrade for us and none of them are making more than Vassell.
That's just the players that are obviously better than our wings, there are quite a few more that could potentially be better this season.

Again, I'll support the friendship crew for one more year, but if there's no significant improvement right away, I want them gone by the deadline otherwise their losing mentality will spread on the young guys.

 

[KobesAchilles]

If you’re looking to support a negative that you might feel about a player,or players, KA is your guy. Don’t ever look for the positive, though. It doesn’t exist in his world. I consider both KA and Schmurs to be trolls, because they never even have one positive thing to say about the team or its players.

Wemby is a top 5 player in the NBA. Fox is a very good PG and probably the second best point guard in franchise history ( I never saw James Silas). Steph Castle will be an all-star within 3 years time and Carter Bryant is my hope for the franchise.

I am very complimentary on the Spurs when they were a well run organization. I want them to be one again. I was never part of the Parker vs Manu debates, I loved them both. I never got my panties twisted in a bunch over Kawhi leaving us. And Pop is probably my GOAT coach across sports.

But in my mind (twisted and negative as it may be) I see certain obvious things that prevent us from reaching that excellence that I know we are in the cusp of and I want those things gone/changed.

 

[Shmurs]

getting off Keldon and Jeremy is totally easy and risk free. Whoever the replacement for either is, they’ll be better and cheaper than their respective amigo (after whatever dumb contract Jeremy gets kicks in).

Devin is more complicated, I admit. Because we won’t be able to get a perfect upgrade without overpaying. And if you don’t overpay for an upgrade then you get Bruce Brown. But maybe that’s good enough? I just don’t love that type of player coming into an ascending team. Better as a plug in to successful infrastructure. And you can’t get a Nesmith unless you draft him, because he’s about to get suitcases of money when he’s due for a re-up.

So do you keep overpaying Devin or do you say screw it and shift to Champ as a starter? It’s also possible Wright finds the guy in the market. But it’s also possible that Devin figures it out this year. The other 2 guys - nope.

 

[Ariel]

getting off Keldon and Jeremy is totally easy and risk free. Whoever the replacement for either is, they’ll be better and cheaper than their respective amigo (after whatever dumb contract Jeremy gets kicks in).

Devin is more complicated, I admit. Because we won’t be able to get a perfect upgrade without overpaying. And if you don’t overpay for an upgrade then you get Bruce Brown. But maybe that’s good enough? I just don’t love that type of player coming into an ascending team. Better as a plug in to successful infrastructure. And you can’t get a Nesmith unless you draft him, because he’s about to get suitcases of money when he’s due for a re-up.

So do you keep overpaying Devin or do you say screw it and shift to Champ as a starter? It’s also possible Wright finds the guy in the market. But it’s also possible that Devin figures it out this year. The other 2 guys - nope.

Sochan is expiring and Keldon has 1 more season beyond this one, which doesn't hurt much because Spurs aren't going to have cap space next offseason anyway. So it comes down to Vassell, he is the only non core contract that could hurt the Spurs long term. If he doesn't take a leap, by the trade deadline I'd try to move him at the first opportunity, before he becomes a negative.

 

[LeBowen]

And you can’t get a Nesmith unless you draft him, because he’s about to get suitcases of money when he’s due for a re-up.

So do you keep overpaying Devin or do you say screw it and shift to Champ as a starter? It’s also possible Wright finds the guy in the market. But it’s also possible that Devin figures it out this year. The other 2 guys - nope.

Nesmith was drafted by the Celtics and traded to the Pacers after two seasons.
Before the end of last season I wrote I wanted Wright to get more reclamation projects we could potentially turn into legit rotation pieces.
And they did a good job, imo.
Kornet was the obvious target, clearly better than the third string role he had in Boston.
Waters looks like a very good 9th-11th man shooter off the bench, something we really lacked as of late.
Flagler has shown that he's got solid fundamentals and that he can be useful if an injury crisis happens.
DJG is a great find.

Champ joined in a similar scenario and has turned into maybe even the best minimum contract player in the league not counting veterans.
Bisseck was also a good pickup, too bad he's got no knees.
Even Barnes was someone we got paid to take.

As for Champ starting, I've been hoping for it for about a year now. Devin is obviously a better player individually, but Champ is exactly the type of SF we need.
Ideally we'd want someone who's more athletic and a better defender, but he clearly fits the starting lineup way better than either Devin or Castle at SF. I don't like giving up size advantage, won't be worth it unless Devin finally becomes the player we're expecting him to be.

 

[spurs10]

He learned to be better in his very limited role.
Cuts better, gets more easy baskets, offensive rebounding is his best attribute.
Obviously no jumpshot improvement, his post game is non-existant and he can't finish efficently enough over defenders unless there's a big size mismatch.
Most of his points come from the fact that he's the player left wide open by design. I don't hink having such a player on the floor is good on our team.

If he's left open it means someone is doubled, which ain't good.

 

[scott]

Sochan is expiring and Keldon has 1 more season beyond this one, which doesn't hurt much because Spurs aren't going to have cap space next offseason anyway. So it comes down to Vassell, he is the only non core contract that could hurt the Spurs long term. If he take a leap, by the trade deadline I'd try to move him at the first opportunity, before he becomes a negative.

TBH, I like what I've seen from Keldon and Devin this pre-season. Devin seems to be playing smarter, and on defense he is clogging passing lanes and creating events (which he is actually quite good at). I don't know if that is worth $27M/yr and that its the problem. If he were getting paid $18M/yr, he'd be fine.

Keldon is showing something as a potential bench energy scorer. So long as that's his role, I'm fine with rolling with him through the duration of his deal.

 

[ird80]

It’s quite possible to waste a ton of time responding to KA or Schmurs, and come away with nothing to show for it.

Big picture, That pretty much goes for all time here

 

[Ariel]

TBH, I like what I've seen from Keldon and Devin this pre-season. Devin seems to be playing smarter, and on defense he is clogging passing lanes and creating events (which he is actually quite good at). I don't know if that is worth $27M/yr and that its the problem. If he were getting paid $18M/yr, he'd be fine.

Keldon is showing something as a potential bench energy scorer. So long as that's his role, I'm fine with rolling with him through the duration of his deal.

Keldon is probably fine as a bench piece and salary matching, he wouldn't have trade value at his contract but Spurs were able to move Zach Collins (similar contract, worse player) I don't see why they wouldn't be able to move him.

Problem with Vassell is he's paid as a clear starter (not a fringe or circumstantial one), if he is that then fine, otherwise he's a negative and should be moved while there is a chance. He's 25, entering his 6th season and at some point you're less and less likely to see improvements if they haven't happened already. My cutoff is this trade deadline, noting that it may already be too late by then if he starts the season on the wrong foot. Move him for whatever, extend Champ for 10 million or so, and use the slot in free agency (last season Atlanta signed NAW for about MLE level).

 

[Shmurs]

Keldon is giving 110% against people giving 75%. This is why he’s also such a great player in April, but not so much in March. Once the mass tanking starts, it’s his time.

He’s in year 7? That’s plenty to know what he is. A guy with insane shot mechanics that can’t be corralled into a repeatable motion and a bully ball guy who gets tunnel vision when he’s activated.

He’s a hitter in baseball that swings at junk. Might be the reason he hits a grand slam in the WS or the reason he goes 0-20 in the series. I don’t like this kind of player when better alternatives are around.

 

[Seventyniner]

He learned to be better in his very limited role.
Cuts better, gets more easy baskets, offensive rebounding is his best attribute.
Obviously no jumpshot improvement, his post game is non-existant and he can't finish efficently enough over defenders unless there's a big size mismatch.
Most of his points come from the fact that he's the player left wide open by design. I don't hink having such a player on the floor is good on our team.

Why is that not an improvement? He's going to be a role player anyway, what's wrong with him getting better at that role?

 

[scott]

As for positivity about friendship crew, let's put things into context.
Spurs are obviously set at guard and big positions, the only thing this roster is lacking are legit wings.

Here's a list of wings on reasonable contracts that would surely be a big upgrade over last season's iterations of friendship crew, rookie contracts excluded:
Dort
Hachimura
Gordon
Cam Johnson
McDaniels
Naz Reid
Aldama
PJ Washington
Dillon Brooks
Avdija
Trey Murphy
Herb Jones
Hunter
Bridges
Josh Hart
Nesmith
Alexander Walker
Norman Powell

Any of those players replacing the corresponding friendship crew member would be a guaranteed upgrade for us and none of them are making more than Vassell.
That's just the players that are obviously better than our wings, there are quite a few more that could potentially be better this season.

Again, I'll support the friendship crew for one more year, but if there's no significant improvement right away, I want them gone by the deadline otherwise their losing mentality will spread on the young guys.

I'd add Tari Eason to this list... who we could have (and probably should have) just drafted instead of Sochan.

 

[TBdog]

Buddy you literally said that every playoff team would trade for them if all they had to do was salary match.

And I don’t know if CB is better now. But I think he will be one by February if given minutes to develop into one. It’s like 2012 Spurs with Stephen Jackson. He was a better player than Danny Green and Kawhi but they eventually became the better fit as the year progressed.

CB avg 6.5p and 4reb a game in college. It would be a colossus improvement to be ready at the NBA level by February over proven NBA players. Yes, if the cost of KJ and or Vassell is just salary match, there will be lots of competition.

 

[KobesAchilles]

CB avg 6.5p and 4reb a game in college. It would be a colossus improvement to be ready at the NBA level by February over proven NBA players. Yes, if the cost of KJ and or Vassell is just salary match, there will be lots of competition.

How?
There’s literally no playoff team in the WC with a bench player that makes KJ money. So how could they salary match? They’d have to trade a starter to salary match KJ just to put him on the bench. Makes zero sense.

 

[CGD]

Keldon is giving 110% against people giving 75%. This is why he’s also such a great player in April, but not so much in March. Once the mass tanking starts, it’s his time.

He’s in year 7? That’s plenty to know what he is. A guy with insane shot mechanics that can’t be corralled into a repeatable motion and a bully ball guy who gets tunnel vision when he’s activated.

He’s a hitter in baseball that swings at junk. Might be the reason he hits a grand slam in the WS or the reason he goes 0-20 in the series. I don’t like this kind of player when better alternatives are around

I think his replacement is already on the team in Steph Castle. Brings a lot of the same motor/ferocity and bully ball game, but with significant more upside and feel for the game. Love Keldon as a human being and will always pull for him, but it's time.

 

[Exstatic]

Keldon is probably fine as a bench piece and salary matching, he wouldn't have trade value at his contract but Spurs were able to move Zach Collins (similar contract, worse player) I don't see why they wouldn't be able to move him.

Problem with Vassell is he's paid as a clear starter (not a fringe or circumstantial one), if he is that then fine, otherwise he's a negative and should be moved while there is a chance. He's 25, entering his 6th season and at some point you're less and less likely to see improvements if they haven't happened already. My cutoff is this trade deadline, noting that it may already be too late by then if he starts the season on the wrong foot. Move him for whatever, extend Champ for 10 million or so, and use the slot in free agency (last season Atlanta signed NAW for about MLE level).

The problem with most posters is that they only look at the dollar amount, and don’t consider the cap%, which drops every year making his deal better. There’s an actual $$ drop in the second to the last season, and that will likely be the time to move him.

 

[Shmurs]

ok then…no other bench player in the west playoffs made as much of a percentage of the cap as Keldon.

And typing it out that way still demonstrates the exact same problem. So it’s obvious that GM’s don’t play the percentage game the way you’re framing it, then.