Player The Layne Staley Depression-Laden Foxhole of De'Aaron Martez Fox

[scott]

Jokic didn’t scored under 20 three times last playoffs. DEN should have traded him for Sochan while they had a chance.

 

[LeBowen]

Someone call up the Pacers and tell them Tyrese Haliburton isn’t worth it, because he doesn’t score 20 in every playoff game

You’re going to make me channel my inner Angry @MannyIG with these braindead takes

Alright, maybe not literally every game, but we'll need him to be the clear second best player on most nights.
And it's not comparable with Haliburton because they didn't have an S-tier PG talent coming off the bench.

I'm not going to lie, I got beyond triggered by his negative IQ play today, being in a shooting slump is one thing, but a 28 year old max contract point guard always has to be in control.
His turnovers were a product of bad decisions and he also missed a couple of easy lobs to Wemby.

Let's hope he can reset during the break and get back to his early season level. If he can, we'll be near-unstoppable.

 

[scott]

Alright, maybe not literally every game, but we'll need him to be the clear second best player on most nights.
And it's not comparable with Haliburton because they didn't have an S-tier PG talent coming off the bench.

I'm not going to lie, I got beyond triggered by his negative IQ play today, being in a shooting slump is one thing, but a 28 year old max contract point guard always has to be in control.
His turnovers were a product of bad decisions and he also missed a couple of easy lobs to Wemby.

Let's hope he can reset during the break and get back to his early season level. If he can, we'll be near-unstoppable.

The Spurs will need him to play well in the playoffs. Whether he eclipses some arbitrary scoring mark every game is an inane way of gauging this, since it’s clearly not the role they’ve cast him in.

If you want to say that the role we’ve cast him in is not worth his contract, we don’t need to wait until the playoffs for that, but that’s a different conversation. Might have to do a Sunday Stat Session on USG amongst Max players. I’d hypothesize that Fox’s is among the lowest.

Re: Haliburton, why would him not having to compete for USG excuse him for not achieving this arbitrary scoring requirement? That’s wholly illogical. The Spurs are more well balanced by design. Counting stats are going to naturally be depressed as a result. Hence why we are (I believe) the first team in history with 8 scorers in double figures. That’s intentional.

 

[100%Duncan]

Well start getting mad now, because there will undoubtedly be playoff games where Fox doesn’t score 20, just like there were playoff games (finals, even) where Duncan didn’t score 20.

The Spurs gameplan isn’t reliant upon any one player scoring 20, and that’s by design. Judging a player by some arbitrary stat achievement that isn’t related to our real goals (winning games) is silly.

20 could be any other number. 20 is actually being generous to Fox considering the inflation of scoring we are witnessing in this day and age.


You cant be serious comparing Duncan or any superstar in the past eras to now when talking about scoring production and pace.

 

[timtonymanu]

Agree with scott that the Spurs have a good amount of players capable of going off. We don't really need Sacramento Kings version of Fox despite the max contract. He's never had a teammate as good as Wemby.

Again, I totally get if people hold him to that standard but the point is he isn't a negative presence for the team (having the players over at his house for a team gathering says a lot about how much they like him) and we're still winning games even when he's not scoring 20 points a game. Of course, if he ends up losing us games in the playoffs then we can bitch about it more. Right now, he's not bringing the team down.

 

[bozhemoi]

He was maybe the 10th best Spur in the game today. Really struggles being even a basic point guard. He's too small, can't get past players, and was never a good distributor. He's fine if he can get into his little baby short range in the paint shots, but his value on this team is shrinking and it wasn't even that high.

I've been saying it since the summer. And even then I thought he could pop off for a 50 piece or even a 40 piece but he's so limited he's struggling to even get to 25 here or there.

I'm glad he's here while Harper is still learning the ropes, but we need to jettison him before long before having to attach assets to move him.

 

[bozhemoi]

Agree with scott that the Spurs have a good amount of players capable of going off. We don't really need Sacramento Kings version of Fox despite the max contract. He's never had a teammate as good as Wemby.

Again, I totally get if people hold him to that standard but the point is he isn't a negative presence for the team (having the players over at his house for a team gathering says a lot about how much they like him) and we're still winning games even when he's not scoring 20 points a game. Of course, if he ends up losing us games in the playoffs then we can bitch about it more. Right now, he's not bringing the team down.

I agree with this take. Tonight, the young Spurs were running rampant over the Mavericks. Sight to behold. Fox had no part in it, because he's not that player. His best days are likely behind him, unfortunately, but right now he still has value on the team. He's a good ball-handler, can sort of get his shots off (although even Vassel is better than him at this) and doesn't make a lot of mistakes (on offense: defense is another matter).

He's going to be useful this year and next year. Then we need to bundle up that $55 million contract and get him out of here.

 

[timtonymanu]

Yeah, I wish his contract was less expensive. But he hasn't complained about his role change and realistically who else could we have gotten for his talent level other than Lauri (who Ainge was stubbornly going to ask for a lot)? We only had to get rid of Tre and Collins for Fox.

It was definitely better to have him than to rely on Chris Paul still. I know Paul was liked here but he was seriously becoming washed. Fox is not a bad placeholder to have before Castle and Harper are fully ready to contribute at the same time.

 

[scott]

20 could be any other number. 20 is actually being generous to Fox considering the inflation of scoring we are witnessing in this day and age.


You cant be serious comparing Duncan or any superstar in the past eras to now when talking about scoring production and pace.

It could be any other number, but you arbitrarily picked 20. It's about as smart a take as the guy in the game thread saying Wemby had a bad game today, but didn't watch the game, only looked at the box score.

 

[100%Duncan]

It could be any other number, but you arbitrarily picked 20. It's about as smart a take as the guy in the game thread saying Wemby had a bad game today, but didn't watch the game, only looked at the box score.

I picked 20 because that’s an acceptable range of 2nd option number for me, and I maintain the fact that that’s generous given the stat inflation in this era.

If I’d have said 25 you would say, that would be too high.


When we got Fox was it really not a safe expectation for him to get a respectable amount of ppg? He’s averaging the lowest ppg in his career since his sophomore season and has an almost 7 pt drop off from his all nba year.

 

[scott]

I picked 20 because that’s an acceptable range of 2nd option number for me, and I maintain the fact that that’s generous given the stat inflation in this era.

If I’d have said 25 you would say, that would be too high.


When we got Fox was it really not a safe expectation for him to get a respectable amount of ppg? He’s averaging the lowest ppg in his career since his sophomore season and has an almost 7 pt drop off from his all nba year.

Jokic didn't score 20 in multiple playoff games last year. Denver should probably go ahead and cut him now.

 

[100%Duncan]

Jokic didn't score 20 in multiple playoff games last year. Denver should probably go ahead and cut him now.

No one is talking about cutting him tbh (trading also). Certainly not me. My expectation for him come from watching him in Sac scoring at will, in the paint and in the midrange while having a respectable 3-ball.

Teams will pack the paint in the playoffs and I trust him a lot more to take over than say Steph, Dev, Dylan.

If I’m setting myself up for disappointment is another matter altogether.

 

[scott]

No one is talking about cutting him tbh (trading also). Certainly not me. My expectation for him come from watching him in Sac scoring at will, in the paint and in the midrange while having a respectable 3-ball.

Teams will pack the paint in the playoffs and I trust him a lot more to take over than say Steph, Dev, Dylan.

If I’m setting myself up for disappointment is another matter altogether.

But the Spurs clearly aren't using him or expecting him to be the guy he was in SAC. He's not even the second option on this team, he's third in the team in USG%.

He (like all stars) need to be held to the standard of playing well in the playoffs. If they don't, they'll inevitably face criticism. But you're putting the condition of "playing well" as scoring 20 points in every game. You can do you, but that's just silly.

 

[100%Duncan]

But the Spurs clearly aren't using him or expecting him to be the guy he was in SAC. He's not even the second option on this team, he's third in the team in USG%.

He (like all stars) need to be held to the standard of playing well in the playoffs. If they don't, they'll inevitably face criticism. But you're putting the condition of "playing well" as scoring 20 points in every game. You can do you, but that's just silly.

The usage thing is a coaching issue and hopefully that changes as the regular season ends.

On the “playing well” and ppg, I didnt think it needed to be expounded. Of course he has to do other things than score like: distribute the ball (he has had a lot stupid passes recently), make teams respect him outside, be a not negative defender (which he has been pretty good this season). But above all that, I find Fox’s biggest importance to us is his scoring. Which is why it’s where I’m focusing my criticisms on.

 

[MannyIG]

The salary based takes are fucking stupid. Fox's does not matter. This teams finances are pretty much on rails for the foreseeable future with rookie contracts and extensions being the primary factors. You guys have done the same shit with Keldon and Devin for years when those contracts literally had zero bearing on what the Spurs did regarding personnel. The contracts matter only when they are limiting factors to what the Spurs are going to do in the offseason.

Fox has the highest winshare of any guard on this team this year. I don't care about anything else other than if a player is helping this team win and it is abundantly clear that Fox is doing that. How that shows up in the box score on any particular night I absolutely DGAF about and I honestly don't understand people who do. Once again, I would get looking for a problem if the Spurs were not playing REALLY FUCKING WELL! The problems with this team aren't that Fox isn't scoring enough for his contract, but rather simply that they're inexperienced and inconsistent because they are young and neither of those two things change if you pay Fox 10 million less a year.

 

[MannyIG]

The usage thing is a coaching issue and hopefully that changes as the regular season ends.

On the “playing well” and ppg, I didnt think it needed to be expounded. Of course he has to do other things than score like: distribute the ball (he has had a lot stupid passes recently), make teams respect him outside, be a not negative defender (which he has been pretty good this season). But above all that, I find Fox’s biggest importance to us is his scoring. Which is why it’s where I’m focusing my criticisms on.

Here's a thought exercise, is there a scenario where Fox's usage doesn't go up, but the Spurs make a run to the WCF? Is his usage a problem then?

 

[spursistan]

This play is microcosm of how much Fox is sticking like sore thumb right now by being the mediocre passer he is and nearly ruining this epic sequence. You've got a big problem if Devon Vassell is displaying better court awareness than you. (There a couple more horrendous passes in transition in this game alone when he missed Wemby for the dunk). A year on, and the chemistry with Wemby is just not there at all whether on the pick n roll or the high/low.

https://twitter.com/x/status/2020297161028546687

 

[LeBowen]

The Spurs will need him to play well in the playoffs. Whether he eclipses some arbitrary scoring mark every game is an inane way of gauging this, since it’s clearly not the role they’ve cast him in.

If you want to say that the role we’ve cast him in is not worth his contract, we don’t need to wait until the playoffs for that, but that’s a different conversation. Might have to do a Sunday Stat Session on USG amongst Max players. I’d hypothesize that Fox’s is among the lowest.

We agree that he's somewhat of a victim in all this since he has to play a role he probably never played before, but I can't lie, I got triggered by a couple of plays.

This just cannot be a thing, ever.
I'd expect Bryant to make that lob to Wemby, let alone Fox.
And it's been a recurring theme throughout the season, not just for him. But he's a point guard and he needs to get way better at throwing lobs to the biggest vertical threat in league history, it's really not that hard.
Against the Hornets or the Pelicans (can't remember) he fucked up an easy lob in the clutch (got blocked) and we lost that game.

Re: Haliburton, why would him not having to compete for USG excuse him for not achieving this arbitrary scoring requirement? That’s wholly illogical. The Spurs are more well balanced by design. Counting stats are going to naturally be depressed as a result. Hence why we are (I believe) the first team in history with 8 scorers in double figures. That’s intentional.

Haliburton gets that arbitrary requirement with his playmaking.
He's at 10/2 assist/turnover since he got to the Pacers.

Spurs are more balanced by design, but then we go back to the question of what was he actually brought in for. Fox was amazing up until Vegas, carried our season while Wemby was out and if he can get close to that level again, we'd be near-unstoppable.

The salary based takes are fucking stupid. Fox's does not matter.

It doesn't matter this or the next season, but unlike most people, I never bought into the idea that Spurs traded for Fox as a short term solution. And if he doesn't get back to his pre-Vegas level, he'll earn himself a one-way ticket to Miami or wherever by the end of the next season when extensions start kicking in.

Fox has the highest winshare of any guard on this team this year. I don't care about anything else other than if a player is helping this team win and it is abundantly clear that Fox is doing that. How that shows up in the box score on any particular night I absolutely DGAF about and I honestly don't understand people who do.

He was amazing up until Vegas, helped the team with way more than just his scoring. He took care of the ball and his defense was also great. Since then, not so much. Teams started scoring on him at will.

Once again, I would get looking for a problem if the Spurs were not playing REALLY FUCKING WELL! The problems with this team aren't that Fox isn't scoring enough for his contract, but rather simply that they're inexperienced and inconsistent because they are young and neither of those two things change if you pay Fox 10 million less a year.

That's the thing. Spurs weren't playing really fucking well since Christmas up until last week.
9-8 with Fox on the floor and him descending into mediocrity together with everyone else.
Those are the stretches we brought him in for. When the young guys start struggling he needs to be the one to hold the ship steady and score when we need it the most.
But he didn't, he sunk together with the ship.
And let's not pretend everything is great again since our 4Ws have been against mediocre Magic, OKC G-league team and the tanking Mavs.
I know, I know, we're asking for way too much from this young team, but we're Spurs fans and Fox is a 28 year old on a max contract.
Max contact which doesn't impact the cap space as much, but it's more of a statement thing for Fox and he needs to play up to the required level.

 

[frenchfred]

the reality is that if I look at players with a salary of 50 millions, I think that everybody except Towns and George, Embiid, Davis for injury history would make our team better over Fox. Fox is useful with his experience at the PG position but if Harper and Castle develop as planned, Fox will have to be moved in two years

 

[MannyIG]

\

the reality is that if I look at players with a salary of 50 millions, I think that everybody except Towns and George, Embiid, Davis for injury history would make our team better over Fox. Fox is useful with his experience at the PG position but if Harper and Castle develop as planned, Fox will have to be moved in two years

View attachment 804

Ok, now go through that list and tell me which of those players the Spurs would have been able to acquire last trade deadline - especially for what they gave up.

Curry? No.
Jokic? No.
Durant? Maybe but the cost would have been way too high.
Davis? No
Towns? No thank you
Giannis? No
Luka? No
Butler? No thank you
Tatum? No
Booker? Maybe but once again, at what price?
Brown? No
Lebron? Probably not - price to high either way
George, LOL
Kawhi LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Also, Fox's salary isn't 50 million a year. If you want to do an apples to apples comparison, look at who makes over 50 million NEXT year.

 

[MannyIG]

We agree that he's somewhat of a victim in all this since he has to play a role he probably never played before, but I can't lie, I got triggered by a couple of plays.

This just cannot be a thing, ever.
I'd expect Bryant to make that lob to Wemby, let alone Fox.
And it's been a recurring theme throughout the season, not just for him. But he's a point guard and he needs to get way better at throwing lobs to the biggest vertical threat in league history, it's really not that hard.
Against the Hornets or the Pelicans (can't remember) he fucked up an easy lob in the clutch (got blocked) and we lost that game.


Haliburton gets that arbitrary requirement with his playmaking.
He's at 10/2 assist/turnover since he got to the Pacers.

Spurs are more balanced by design, but then we go back to the question of what was he actually brought in for. Fox was amazing up until Vegas, carried our season while Wemby was out and if he can get close to that level again, we'd be near-unstoppable.


It doesn't matter this or the next season, but unlike most people, I never bought into the idea that Spurs traded for Fox as a short term solution. And if he doesn't get back to his pre-Vegas level, he'll earn himself a one-way ticket to Miami or wherever by the end of the next season when extensions start kicking in.


He was amazing up until Vegas, helped the team with way more than just his scoring. He took care of the ball and his defense was also great. Since then, not so much. Teams started scoring on him at will.


That's the thing. Spurs weren't playing really fucking well since Christmas up until last week.
9-8 with Fox on the floor and him descending into mediocrity together with everyone else.
Those are the stretches we brought him in for. When the young guys start struggling he needs to be the one to hold the ship steady and score when we need it the most.
But he didn't, he sunk together with the ship.
And let's not pretend everything is great again since our 4Ws have been against mediocre Magic, OKC G-league team and the tanking Mavs.
I know, I know, we're asking for way too much from this young team, but we're Spurs fans and Fox is a 28 year old on a max contract.
Max contact which doesn't impact the cap space as much, but it's more of a statement thing for Fox and he needs to play up to the required level.

Fox is not and has never been a great passer. Castle has more turnovers, but I actually think both he and Harper are better passers. Fox needs to score and play defense as far as I'm concerned. I don't want him to be shit at passing, but I have a much lower bar here for him than I assume other people do.

I do think the Spurs played worse for a stretch, but a young inconsistent team is going to be extremely variable so I just don't care about a month long stretch of sub optimal basketball. In my opinion, these dudes got too high based on the OKC stretch and had an emotional lag after that for awhile. I don't know, people can assign meaning to them playing bad for a month but I also never thought they were as good as they played early on and on balance I think they are a good team that might improve to great by the end of the season as they learn.

Fox could be looking for his own numbers game after game so that he's not in danger of being traded in a couple of years when Harper and Castle are about to get paid and but instead he's playing a team role. He's being paid extremely handsomely for that so its not like he's doing the Spurs the greatest favor in the world, but there are a lot of stars out there who would not let that happen. I value that a lot more than any monthlong stretch or a slight drop in scoring - especially because he's made it abundantly clear this year that he still can do that.

 

[OK Computer]

Fox is not and has never been a great passer. Castle has more turnovers, but I actually think both he and Harper are better passers. Fox needs to score and play defense as far as I'm concerned. I don't want him to be shit at passing, but I have a much lower bar here for him than I assume other people do.

I do think the Spurs played worse for a stretch, but a young inconsistent team is going to be extremely variable so I just don't care about a month long stretch of sub optimal basketball. In my opinion, these dudes got too high based on the OKC stretch and had an emotional lag after that for awhile. I don't know, people can assign meaning to them playing bad for a month but I also never thought they were as good as they played early on and on balance I think they are a good team that might improve to great by the end of the season as they learn.

Fox could be looking for his own numbers game after game so that he's not in danger of being traded in a couple of years when Harper and Castle are about to get paid and but instead he's playing a team role. He's being paid extremely handsomely for that so its not like he's doing the Spurs the greatest favor in the world, but there are a lot of stars out there who would not let that happen. I value that a lot more than any monthlong stretch or a slight drop in scoring - especially because he's made it abundantly clear this year that he still can do that.

Well said. Fox has allowed us to give different looks to other players we otherwise would not have been able to see if we had a different star with a massive ego. After what I saw in game 1, I thought it would be that way but soon after that those doubts went away. Fox is doing an admirable job being a leader and putting aside himself for the betterment of the team.

There are many ways this could have gone wrong, and I think people take what’s happening right now for granted. What a great development environment for Harper to be in, to be a guy in the background and seeing how his teammates are happy for each other. If this dude was given the keys early, I can’t imagine what kind of massive ego he would have developed by now. Instead, he’s seeing Castle go off for 40 pts, and he’s happy for him. On any other team, he would have been the one trying to do that while destroying any kind of team concept in his basketball brain.

 

[scott]

We agree that he's somewhat of a victim in all this since he has to play a role he probably never played before, but I can't lie, I got triggered by a couple of plays.

This just cannot be a thing, ever.
I'd expect Bryant to make that lob to Wemby, let alone Fox.
And it's been a recurring theme throughout the season, not just for him. But he's a point guard and he needs to get way better at throwing lobs to the biggest vertical threat in league history, it's really not that hard.
Against the Hornets or the Pelicans (can't remember) he fucked up an easy lob in the clutch (got blocked) and we lost that game.

Yes... Fox needs to make those passes, there is no denying this. But does he not need to make them if he's scoring 20 points every game? That's literally the topic here. The stupid premise here is that "FOX MUST SCORE 20 IN EVERY PLAYOFF GAME". Now you're talking about making lob passes to Wemby, moving the goal posts away. To your credit, however, it's because you've already ceded that, in fact, Fox does not "need to score 20 in every playoff game".

I don't think there is anyone here disputing that Fox needs to play well in the playoffs. He's a max player, of course he needs to play well in the playoffs. He played well in his one trip previously, but it was in a far different role where had has 31% usage. I don't think the Spurs will, nor do I think they should, completely change their game plan once the playoffs roll around to funnel all the USG to Wemby and Fox. The regular season should be the tune up to the playoffs, not some experiment that we just completely flip away from one the postseason starts.

Haliburton gets that arbitrary requirement with his playmaking.
He's at 10/2 assist/turnover since he got to the Pacers.

Yes... there are contextual elements to every player beyond just how many points they score in a game... which is my entire point. But whatever reason, it was reduced to "Fox must score X points". I bet you'll find there were some playoff games where Hali did not have a 10/2 assist/TOV or better... does that mean he's trash?

Spurs are more balanced by design, but then we go back to the question of what was he actually brought in for. Fox was amazing up until Vegas, carried our season while Wemby was out and if he can get close to that level again, we'd be near-unstoppable.

I've been saying for over a month that if we acquired-and-maxed Fox to be an off-ball SG then that was a mistake. With that said, over the last week we've seen a shift to more Fox on-ball and Castle in the role a lot of us have been asking for and it's looking a lot better.

The pre-Vegas Fox you're talking about wasn't just without Wemby for a large chunk of that, it was also without Castle and even had a little stretch without Harper. I went ahead and mapped it out. I left out Dylan's USG since he doesn't compete for the main scoring load with Wemby, Castle and Fox - but I included his games played just a demonstration of some of that overlap.



The Pre-Vegas Fox was 29.8 USG% if you combine the game 9-12 stretch with the game 13-24 stretch, which aligns more closely with his USG% in SAC (28.5 for his career in SAC, compared with 25.4 here). Once Wemby and Castle came back, that started to dip. Fox isn't even the second option here, he's the third. I'll go ahead and say that giving a max to a third option who isn't an All NBA defender is usually bad business. But, for whatever reason... that's what the Spurs are doing.

The last 3 games I called out separately because from my eye, I've noticed Castle playing a lot more off-ball and as a secondary playmaker since he had that one game off, which is how many of us wanted to see him get used. A lot of people are hung up on this "is he a PG is he not a PG" stuff but that's truly irrelevant. What matters to me is whether he's the primary initiator because that's where we've seen things get bogged down.

The last 3 games USG is obviously a little skewed by Steph taking 19 shots and 10 FTs in game 52. So here is the USG by game those last three games:



I'm not going to read too much into a 3 game sample... but I'm interesting in following how this progresses, because this is the best our offense has looked in awhile (and we've put up 116, 135, 138 points) so I'm curious how things develop with Castle in more of a secondary playmaker role. Results look good so far.

Bottom line... it's clear Mitch and the staff are still figuring out how this puzzle all fits together. But clamoring for the Pre-Vegas Fox comes at a cost. There is only one ball... at whose expense will the USG come from to get the Pre-Vegas Fox?

[Of course a final disclaimer, USG we've talked about at length in the past and it doesn't paint a complete picture but it does give us a fairly good look at who is being called upon to score the ball]

 

[John B]

Agree with scott that the Spurs have a good amount of players capable of going off. We don't really need Sacramento Kings version of Fox despite the max contract. He's never had a teammate as good as Wemby.

Again, I totally get if people hold him to that standard but the point is he isn't a negative presence for the team (having the players over at his house for a team gathering says a lot about how much they like him) and we're still winning games even when he's not scoring 20 points a game. Of course, if he ends up losing us games in the playoffs then we can bitch about it more. Right now, he's not bringing the team down.

I agree. As a veteran leader he needs to help bring out the potentials of the younger players. It makes the team better having more threats, plus it would open up more lanes for him. He can always switch it on when he needs to step up.

 

[scott]

Also one more note on the above... like @MannyIG alluded to in his posts, I care about one thing above all else: the team playing well and winning games.

IDGAF who scores the ball. If It's Wemby, Fox, Sochan or Bismack, it doesn't matter... I just want it to happen in the most efficient way possible that positively affects winning.

That's why I don't place arbitrary "Player must have this stat or he's not worth it". That's just dumb, because the objective of the game is not to accumulate individual stats, it's to outscore the opponent. However the team unlocks the best way to do that, I'm on board for. They are still figuring it out... and that's okay. It looks like they've recently finally landed on moving away from Castle playing ISO ball, and not surprisingly it appears to have unlocked another, more efficient, gear in Stephon. I'm here for it. If that turns Fox into a tertiary 17/7 lead guard who is overpaid... so be it. They don't etch the salary you wasted on the Larry O'Brien when they hand it to you.