Player The Layne Staley Depression-Laden Foxhole of De'Aaron Martez Fox

[LeBowen]

Question is now: despite being solid (and I’m really happy with him on defensive end - he deserves a ton of credit there!) is what we are seeing a decline in speed/ability to get to rim (massive problem if so given his deal) or is it mental and he’s just settling and “coasting” to a degree (not a big issue)

Fox 23-24, his best season:

Fox this season:

23-24, shots taken by those zones listed: 13%-25%-17%-7%-38%, with 5.7 FTA.
25-26, shots taken by those zones listed: 18%-22%-14%-8%-38%, with 4.5 FTA.

More of his shots are coming at the rim than in his highest scoring season in Sacramento. And the percentages are near-identical.
The only difference is that he doesn't dunk these days. But he's got more layups and scores 2.5% better at the rim.
That's whit a lot of point guard duties being taken away from him and having to play as an off the ball shooter in a lot of sets.

And I disagree we got him cheap. Wash got Trae for expiring deals. Spurs gave up 10th pick last draft, 2 more firsts and maxed him out.

Bulls got their pick back, it was top10 protected. They would've tanked to keep it.
Hornets pick wasn't conveying. Then some more second rounders, I don't even remember. But it's not like we use those these days.
Our own 2027 pick and Timberwolves 2031 as the only relevant assets.

That doesn’t change reality though and spurs with all those picks and cap space + Harper would be fine right now.

We're way more than just fine right now, aren't we?
Fox has been our by far the best player after Wemby and we have the third best record in the league with so many injuries and a ridiculous schedule.

I’m happy with Fox and glad he’s here; I don’t like his deal and I bet Sa if they knew they were getting Harper would absolutely not have done the deal.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Also, I'm not sure why are you comparing him with Trae, one of the worst defenders in NBA history that can't stay healthy.
Fox is the only all-star point guard other than SGA that takes difficult defensive matchups by design.
And he can play off the ball way better than Trae.

 

[Sugus]

I really need to see this guy in the playoffs before making a judgment on him and his contract. I don't buy into the "Kangz Forever" stuff and see him as quite an intelligent and capable player, but he's been concerning with his play at times, and it's the kind of problems that can be heightened in the post-season.

He was kind of bricking every shot last night for a while, as he's seemingly prone to do, and indeed doesn't compensate with a heavier amount of driving -- though it seems to be a scheme thing, he'll space and Castle/Harper make the drives. Which is fine...... But not when Castle is shooting 3/16 and you're getting paid a Max yet shooting the same 16 shots as him. You gotta take over and put your hand on the steering wheel.

It'll be his ability to step up and take over in the playoffs that I'm looking at. He's been quite reserved during the RS which is fine itself, especially with his calf injury at the start, but makes it harder to judge his abilities fully.

FWIW - he doesn't look a step slower or incapable to me, tbh. Which is all the more reason it's an intriguing angle. Reminds me of LeBron pacing himself during games at times.... But then Bron turned it the fuck up, tbh.

 

[DPGSpurs]

I really need to see this guy in the playoffs before making a judgment on him and his contract. I don't buy into the "Kangz Forever" stuff and see him as quite an intelligent and capable player, but he's been concerning with his play at times, and it's the kind of problems that can be heightened in the post-season.

He was kind of bricking every shot last night for a while, as he's seemingly prone to do, and indeed doesn't compensate with a heavier amount of driving -- though it seems to be a scheme thing, he'll space and Castle/Harper make the drives. Which is fine...... But not when Castle is shooting 3/16 and you're getting paid a Max yet shooting the same 16 shots as him. You gotta take over and put your hand on the steering wheel.

It'll be his ability to step up and take over in the playoffs that I'm looking at. He's been quite reserved during the RS which is fine itself, especially with his calf injury at the start, but makes it harder to judge his abilities fully.

FWIW - he doesn't look a step slower or incapable to me, tbh. Which is all the more reason it's an intriguing angle. Reminds me of LeBron pacing himself during games at times.... But then Bron turned it the fuck up, tbh.

Agree but still is something to watch. He looks blazing fast when he decides to turn it on.

 

[LeBowen]

I really need to see this guy in the playoffs before making a judgment on him and his contract. I don't buy into the "Kangz Forever" stuff and see him as quite an intelligent and capable player, but he's been concerning with his play at times, and it's the kind of problems that can be heightened in the post-season.

He was kind of bricking every shot last night for a while, as he's seemingly prone to do, and indeed doesn't compensate with a heavier amount of driving -- though it seems to be a scheme thing, he'll space and Castle/Harper make the drives. Which is fine...... But not when Castle is shooting 3/16 and you're getting paid a Max yet shooting the same 16 shots as him. You gotta take over and put your hand on the steering wheel.

It'll be his ability to step up and take over in the playoffs that I'm looking at. He's been quite reserved during the RS which is fine itself, especially with his calf injury at the start, but makes it harder to judge his abilities fully.

FWIW - he doesn't look a step slower or incapable to me, tbh. Which is all the more reason it's an intriguing angle. Reminds me of LeBron pacing himself during games at times.... But then Bron turned it the fuck up, tbh.

We obviously can't find the perfect usage balance for everyone, especially with Wemby's injury struggles.

Castle has been terrible as of late, but when we take him off the ball, he's useless and we need to figure somethng out.
Then Harper comes on and it's not much better spacing wise.

I the initial concept for this roster was to have Devin/Barnes/Champ/Keldon as floor spacers and push the pace, but now that Devin is out and others are struggling from 3 it stopped working.

 

[DPGSpurs]

Fox 23-24, his best season:
View attachment 388
Fox this season:
View attachment 389
23-24, shots taken by those zones listed: 13%-25%-17%-7%-38%, with 5.7 FTA.
25-26, shots taken by those zones listed: 18%-22%-14%-8%-38%, with 4.5 FTA.

More of his shots are coming at the rim than in his highest scoring season in Sacramento. And the percentages are near-identical.
The only difference is that he doesn't dunk these days. But he's got more layups and scores 2.5% better at the rim.
That's whit a lot of point guard duties being taken away from him and having to play as an off the ball shooter in a lot of sets.



Bulls got their pick back, it was top10 protected. They would've tanked to keep it.
Hornets pick wasn't conveying. Then some more second rounders, I don't even remember. But it's not like we use those these days.
Our own 2027 pick and Timberwolves 2031 as the only relevant assets.


We're way more than just fine right now, aren't we?
Fox has been our by far the best player after Wemby and we have the third best record in the league with so many injuries and a ridiculous schedule.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Also, I'm not sure why are you comparing him with Trae, one of the worst defenders in NBA history that can't stay healthy.
Fox is the only all-star point guard other than SGA that takes difficult defensive matchups by design.
And he can play off the ball way better than Trae.

Very good post. Im actually pretty surprised at some of those numbers. I had not looked them up on the season; this was just subjective and eye test from me. I wonder what is seemingly causing then the “eye test” difference vs the numbers? Im not the only one who “sees” it and I dont think its lack of dunks.

Maybe it’s that hes being assisted on it more vs self creating? Thats the big distinction I see in his SAC numbers vs SA. Hes getting similar diet of shots by distance, but self creation vs assisted has changed. So does that get back to scheme or physical? Not sure.

And I dont dislike Fox at all to be clear. Hes been solid enough and is one of the few big guards as you said (and like I said) that can hold up on defense and not be relentlessly targeted. Im happy with where Spurs are.

But this is about his contract and again, whether Trae “sucks” its still not cheap IMO when you compare Luka deal, Trae deal and a few others. But I have no issue with trade cost - only the extension post trade which of course SA was locked into and would never back out of (even if theres a big argument they should have negotiated much harder with Fox).

I dont think it’s impossible to hold two simultaneous views: Fox has been good and Spurs trade made sense and the contract clearly is not great and is obvious it wont age well or be helpful in anyway even if it doesnt end up “hurting” Spurs too much. But if there’s an issue into the future it will be obvious as to what caused the issue and thats his contract.

 

[ginobilized]

Fox has two modes it seems.
Last night’s version: fully engaged, making critical plays in crunch time, good decision-making, scoring and/or distributing at a high level.
The other version: seemingly disengaged, no hustle for loose balls, forcing shots in the teeth of the defense especially launching 3s.

Very Jekyll & Hyde. My biggest hope is that we get version 1 4 times in each playoff series.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

Just to add to what LeBowen said..Fox has carried the Spurs in Non-Wemby games and the two are slowly building a chemistry now. Apart from that Fox is the main head of the three headed guard monster for the Spurs that allows them to compete against teams like OKC. Best trade for the Spurs since we got the Nephew pick via a Draft trade.

 

[Splits]

3PT shooting is still pretty poor but tonight against BOS he found all the other ways to contribute. The kind of performance that can help bust a slump

BB should start a fund to send slumpbusters for all our 3pt shooters

 

[LeBowen]

I dont think it’s impossible to hold two simultaneous views: Fox has been good and Spurs trade made sense and the contract clearly is not great and is obvious it wont age well or be helpful in anyway even if it doesnt end up “hurting” Spurs too much. But if there’s an issue into the future it will be obvious as to what caused the issue and thats his contract.

I'd say Fox will be overpaid about 5%. He got a 30% max extension while in reality he's worth 25% or so.
But those 5% are offset by Castle and Harper being on their rookie deals.

If they take a major leap next season then we can talk about not needing Fox anymore and rather having a high end 3-D wing.
But right now we'd be in a lot of trouble without him. And as long as the young guys don't start shooting the 3 well, Fox will be our best guard.

Also, the big question is the ownership. How much will they be willing to spend to keep the team together?
Luxury tax is at 120% of the cap, 1st apron at 127% and 2nd apron at 135%.
If we're not willing to go into that 1st apron range or just below it, it's going to be really disappointing considering the money other championship contending ownerships are willing to pay.

Time will tell, for now we can enjoy the first 50+ win season in 9 years, despite the recent shooting struggles.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

Is it me or does it seem like Fox is settling a lot of offense?

He still look blazing fast to me when he accelerates so it doesn’t seem like a “physical” issue; just seems like he’s heavily relying on jumper more vs attacking the rim.

Is it on purpose and he’s just saving himself? Is it physical or scheme? Or just mental and over reliance on jumper?

Hard to tell but (and it’s not about tonight just more of a general thing this year) he looks really fast to me still so don’t think it’s physical.

It's the way teams are guarding him. They are heavy in the gaps, so he can't get in the lane as much and that's because we don't have enough shooting. He also been deferring a lot to Castle. A little too much for my taste. He should have more usage than Steph. Other than that I think he's just turning it on when needed. There have been a lot of situations where we really needed a bucket and Fox stepped up.

What I want to see is him developing a 2-man game with Wemby, since they haven't really played together a lot. I think that could be lethal, especially pick and pops.

Spurs would be struggling with Harper starting. We wouldn't be second in the west, probably play-in territory without him. He's the key piece to turn this roster into a contender right away.

You can't really compare that trade with Trae Young. Young has no value. Fox is much better defensively, he's been working his ass off on D and we gave up a bunch of bad contracts for him. Literally no player of value at all. CJ McCollum is way better than Zach Collins, Tre Jones and Sidy Cissoko. Shit Corey Kispert is better than all these guys. Spurs 27, 2 Hornets second rounders, CHI 25 and MIN 31 aren't crazy draft capital either.

 

[scott]

And I disagree we got him cheap. Wash got Trae for expiring deals. Spurs gave up 10th pick last draft, 2 more firsts and maxed him out.

Spurs didn't give up the 10th pick last draft. The pick had Top 10 protection last year, so it would not have conveyed. It was then Top 8 protected this year and next. Whether it would have conveyed this year or next, is up for debate.

Ultimately, the moment we traded for him we were committed to giving him the exact contract he got. Everyone should have recognized that. So to be against his contract is to be against trading for him to begin with, because it doesn't happen any other way.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

Spurs didn't give up the 10th pick last draft. The pick had Top 10 protection last year, so it would not have conveyed. It was then Top 8 protected this year and next. Whether it would have conveyed this year or next, is up for debate.

Ultimately, the moment we traded for him we were committed to giving him the exact contract he got. Everyone should have recognized that. So to be against his contract is to be against trading for him to begin with, because it doesn't happen any other way.

Right. Chicago's pick would've basically been Carter Bryant or kicked down the road. Hornets pick converted into 2 future seconds. Spurs 27 will be like the 28th pick or something in that range. Only Minnesota 2031 first could become something.

 

[scott]

He was kind of bricking every shot last night for a while, as he's seemingly prone to do, and indeed doesn't compensate with a heavier amount of driving -- though it seems to be a scheme thing, he'll space and Castle/Harper make the drives. Which is fine...... But not when Castle is shooting 3/16 and you're getting paid a Max yet shooting the same 16 shots as him. You gotta take over and put your hand on the steering wheel.

I've seen a few comments like this and I don't get them.

Is Fox supposed to come steal the ball away from his teammate? Ignore the plays the coach is calling? Start a fight in a huddle?

What we're seeing on offense is by design, and honestly it's kind of the result of "too many cooks in the kitchen" (which is also why I find continued suggestions that we go for TMIII humorous). Devin has being doing well, but he's taken a step back. Wemby isn't going to step back (nor should we), so either 1) one of Fox or Castle must or 2) we're going to see the load sharing we do now. Personally, I think we are trying to force Castle too much and the ball should be in Fox's hands more... but that's for Mitch to decide, not Fox. This is a team, after all.

To be clear, I'm not saying that we shouldn't reshuffle the offensive priorities a bit, but that's not Fox's decision to make unilaterally. Being a max player doesn't give him authority over the coach. What people seem to want him to do would completely alienate him from his teammates and create a division amongst the team. Why would we want that?

 

[Corso]

I love how Deep's will get really anal on some things that aren't that bad, but you can't budge him much off that ledge even with numbers and reasons.

But he's so level-headed about it you can't even get annoyed.

 

[scott]

Very good post. Im actually pretty surprised at some of those numbers. I had not looked them up on the season; this was just subjective and eye test from me. I wonder what is seemingly causing then the “eye test” difference vs the numbers? Im not the only one who “sees” it and I dont think its lack of dunks.

Maybe it’s that hes being assisted on it more vs self creating? Thats the big distinction I see in his SAC numbers vs SA. Hes getting similar diet of shots by distance, but self creation vs assisted has changed. So does that get back to scheme or physical? Not sure.

IMO, the main difference is being on a SAC team without much talent to a Spurs team with lots of it. A matter of more mouths to feed on the Spurs, so Fox isn't looked to be as dominant.

I think this shows up most clearly in his USG statistics. He's at 26.7% this season. From his 3rd season in SAC to when he was trade to SA, his lowest USG was 29.1%.

 

[DPGSpurs]

I love how Deep's will get really anal on some things that aren't that bad, but you can't budge him much off that ledge even with numbers and reasons.

But he's so level-headed about it you can't even get annoyed.

I think this stems from me wanting the FO to be absolute relentless sharks on finding every edge in all phases.

Was way more important pre Wemby when it was clear what was needed (even though many fought me on it). The Fo has been damn good and sharp for a while now so I’m very happy with them.

But I think often people take my attention to detail or looking at small margins stuff and extrapolate that as being unhappy or truly mad or something

I’m not and I assume (without me needing to explicitly spell it out all the time) people understand me at this point and know me pointing out some things like this doesn’t mean I’ve lost sight of bigger picture or don’t understand the context in which some of this stuff exists. I do - but I still believe every little detail matters: 15th roster spot, contract details, finding opportunities for trades to get assets or improve team etc all of that

But as I said, even with Fox contract concerns (which i guarantee we will revisit by 2027) I’m happy with him and team and Fo

 

[DPGSpurs]

Spurs didn't give up the 10th pick last draft. The pick had Top 10 protection last year, so it would not have conveyed. It was then Top 8 protected this year and next. Whether it would have conveyed this year or next, is up for debate.

Ultimately, the moment we traded for him we were committed to giving him the exact contract he got. Everyone should have recognized that. So to be against his contract is to be against trading for him to begin with, because it doesn't happen any other way.

Yup. Spurs would never go back on their word. However in business if something unexpected happens and variables truly change? It’s understandable to question. Spurs did land pick 2 and Harper and that did materially change things imo. But what’s done is done and I know realistically Sa would never (even if justified) go back on word

 

[LeBowen]

Yup. Spurs would never go back on their word. However in business if something unexpected happens and variables truly change? It’s understandable to question. Spurs did land pick 2 and Harper and that did materially change things imo. But what’s done is done and I know realistically Sa would never (even if justified) go back on word

Fox is the best player Spurs traded for in the modern era alongside signing LMA as a free agent.
Fuck him over and we're back to noone relevant wanting to be traded to the Spurs.

 

[DPGSpurs]

Fox is the best player Spurs traded for in the modern era alongside signing LMA as a free agent.
Fuck him over and we're back to noone relevant wanting to be traded to the Spurs.

I disagree some but it doesnt matter - it happened and its working well right now overall. The question is the future and if the contract ages well which we will see. I don’t necessarily think it WILL end bad; I just see how this is the singular most important thing that COULD end bad.

 

[LeBowen]

I disagree some

Care to elaborate?
NBA is a closed circle. Fuck someone over, you're done.
Players will always care more about each other than the franchise that's currently employing them, with just a few exceptions.
Spurs are one of those exceptions and we won't ruin that reputation even at a cost of having cap issues later on.
Not to mention that Fox is a Klutch client and that fucker Rich Paul controls the entire league it seems.

 

[Seventyniner]

Care to elaborate?
NBA is a closed circle. Fuck someone over, you're done.
Players will always care more about each other than the franchise that's currently employing them, with just a few exceptions.
Spurs are one of those exceptions and we won't ruin that reputation even at a cost of having cap issues later on.
Not to mention that Fox is a Klutch client and that fucker Rich Paul controls the entire league it seems.

 

[Exstatic]

Question is now: despite being solid (and I’m really happy with him on defensive end - he deserves a ton of credit there!) is what we are seeing a decline in speed/ability to get to rim (massive problem if so given his deal) or is it mental and he’s just settling and “coasting” to a degree (not a big issue)

And I disagree we got him cheap. Wash got Trae for expiring deals. Spurs gave up 10th pick last draft, 2 more firsts and maxed him out.

I’m not saying he’s bad but obviously and objectively it was a bad decision to max him out even if we know they were forced into doing it

That doesn’t change reality though and spurs with all those picks and cap space + Harper would be fine right now.

I’m happy with Fox and glad he’s here; I don’t like his deal and I bet Sa if they knew they were getting Harper would absolutely not have done the deal.

That disingenuous. That pick was sitting safely in its protected zone when we flipped it back to Chicago, who promptly began to win and climb the standings, taking it out of its protected zone. It was two seconds to us as much as Charlottes pick was. The good assets were our 27 pick, and Minny’s 31 pick. Everything else was filler.

And don’t even compare Trae and Fox. There was zero market for Trae, but it would have been a blood bath of KD levels if Fox had actually been on the open market. Just look what Mikal Bridges and Desmond Bane returned. You are dead wrong. We got Fox cheap.

 

[DPGSpurs]

Care to elaborate?
NBA is a closed circle. Fuck someone over, you're done.
Players will always care more about each other than the franchise that's currently employing them, with just a few exceptions.
Spurs are one of those exceptions and we won't ruin that reputation even at a cost of having cap issues later on.
Not to mention that Fox is a Klutch client and that fucker Rich Paul controls the entire league it seems.

I think if it were just Spurs backing out then yes. But with Wemby, guys will want to come play here and I think everyone who is reasonable would have understood after the Spurs unexpectedly landing pick 2 out of nowhere and that pick being Harper? That it would have been reasonable for Spurs to negotiate or work with Fox to get him somewhere else he prefers even if it meant not netting back what they gave out etc…

 

[DPGSpurs]

That disingenuous. That pick was sitting safely in its protected zone when we flipped it back to Chicago, who promptly began to win and climb the standings, taking it out of its protected zone. It was two seconds to us as much as Charlottes pick was. The good assets were our 27 pick, and Minny’s 31 pick. Everything else was filler.

And don’t even compare Trae and Fox. There was zero market for Trae, but it would have been a blood bath of KD levels if Fox had actually been on the open market. Just look what Mikal Bridges and Desmond Bane returned. You are dead wrong. We got Fox cheap.

Again, I dont think 2 legit firsts (if thats what you want to call it as the CHI could have easily conveyed this year etc..) + paying Fox 55M a year average is “cheap” but doesnt really matter. It was a fair deal overall and I like that the Spurs made the deal even at that cost and I said so at the time. I also said it was not “cheap” at the time, but it was fair.

 

[LeBowen]

I think if it were just Spurs backing out then yes. But with Wemby, guys will want to come play here and I think everyone who is reasonable would have understood after the Spurs unexpectedly landing pick 2 out of nowhere and that pick being Harper? That it would have been reasonable for Spurs to negotiate or work with Fox to get him somewhere else he prefers even if it meant not netting back what they gave out etc…

But then we'd be wasting the entirety of Wemby's rookie deal on developing young guards that might not ever get on Fox's level.
If we wanted to trade Fox away, it would be a shitshow since he did everything to get here and he'd surely do the same thing he did to Sacramento and we'd end up with Wiggins and Fontecchio or some shit.

Again, I dont think 2 legit firsts (if thats what you want to call it as the CHI could have easily conveyed this year etc..) + paying Fox 55M a year average is “cheap” but doesnt really matter. It was a fair deal overall and I like that the Spurs made the deal even at that cost and I said so at the time. I also said it was not “cheap” at the time, but it was fair.

It's not cheap, but when you see that Desmond Bane cost 4 firsts and a swap...