Player The Layne Staley Depression-Laden Foxhole of De'Aaron Martez Fox

Yes, OK, that is fair to say that. Getting that many free throws is usually a sign of aggression.



That's all I think (can he be more assertive - yes IMO). Maybe Mitch and the staff aren't telling him clearly enough what they want and/or are saying one thing and then running something different in games with their play calling.



I like what you said here. I also don't know which Fox is going to be the most conducive to winning. I guess I have my own ideas on what I think that would be. I think a more aggressive Fox would be, but I don't know because these guys just haven't played enough together, and they haven't tried enough things to see what works best. They can still try some stuff in the meantime, but really, they have to have a fully healthy big 4 to experiment and see what works best. It's frustrating that they haven't been able to do that yet.
For sure... and I bet Mitch and Wemby and Fox and Castle and Harper are more frustrated about this than any of us.

I think my reputation across multiple websites is that I'm not a sniffer... but an 11-5 record has bought a lot of cache for me. We're 3-1 without Wemby (though it wouldn't shock me to see that turn into 3-4), which is pretty good! I'm willing to wait to draw any serious conclusions until we are closer to full strength.
 
What I’ve learned on ST and BB is that even if the spurs went 82-0 and 16-0, there’d still be people complaining about them not blowing the opposing teams by 45+ margins like the original dream team.

At some point, maybe, just maybe, we can collectively come to the conclusion that the spurs play in a professional league, and can lose to even the worst team in the league on any given night. It happens. Chill out.
 
At some point, maybe, just maybe, we can collectively come to the conclusion that the spurs play in a professional league, and can lose to even the worst team in the league on any given night. It happens. Chill out.
 
Contrary to what BaselineBums amateur analysts may have to say... Fox has started out the season:
  • Career high in TS% @ .627, putting him 6th among point guards in the NBA (SGA, Suggs, Curry, Harden, Sheppard above him... Luka and Maxey right behind, followed by... Tre Jones!)
  • Career high in WS/48
  • PTS/36 of 25.3, which is not too far off from some of his highest scoring seasons (he's putting up points, but not playing as many minutes as in the past)
  • USG% is the lower than any season he had in SAC since he 2nd year in the league (maybe this is why folks perceive him to be less aggressive?)
  • Career high .380 3P% on 9.0 3PA/100 (second most of his career), career high 3PAr of .382
  • Career high .593 2P%
  • .328 FTr, which is a little higher than recent years, but earlier in his career he was much more of a FT merchant... would be nice to get back to that. For comparison, Castle's FTr is .548. Notable other FT merchants: Jimmy (.667), SGA (.465), Harden (.480), Luka (.537). Would be really nice to see Fox get in that .400+ range, but he has only done that once, his 3rd season in the league
Areas that can and need to be better:
  • Career low DRB% (but a career high ORB%)
  • 14.8% TOV% highest of since his 2nd season in the league... must improve
 
i didnt expect Fox to score as much as he was doing in Sacto, but i did expect his efficiency to improve. his 3pt shot looks sweet right now and he's making nearly 60% of his 2PA.

the turnovers have been a concern. we thought he would be the antidote to Castle's early season turnover issues, and while he's been better, not at the levels he's been used to. i'd easily attribute turnovers to not being in synch with the team having not practiced with the team at all during offseason/preseason. and once again, very limited time alongside wemby.

my complaint with him in the Phoenix game was the lack of "take the game over" attitude considering how short handed we were. there was never a point in that game where i felt like i could say "de'aaron, take us there"

he opened the second half with a 3 to put us up by 10 and things felt great. he scored 1 point for the rest of the quarter as the suns went +16 the rest of the way. between that 3 point shot and the halfway mark of the 4th quarter, he scored a total of 3 points. by then, the suns were up double digits. for the rest of the game following that made 3, he was 2-6 from the field, with one of those makes being a layup down 11 with 2 minutes to go when the game was basically dead

it wasnt a situation where he could just defer to the hotter hand of Castle, Wemby, or potentially Harper. wasnt exactly a Vassell heater game either. even if it wasnt winnable, you'd like to see more from your max contract paid star guard

im sorry if thats me just being a complaining amateur analyst
 
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Fox woke up and had a great game. Need better defense, too much ball watching, and I don't like him dialing up 3s for himself. He can't hit those. But he finally looked like what he should be.
 
Fox was brought for these kind of situations: to go 4-1 in Wemby's missed games instead of 1-4. No one is arguing he is tier 1 star or an All-NBA player. He is a solid number 2 with occasional scoring outbursts of a primary option.

Wembanyama missing 10-12 games in a "healthy" season is almost a given. We need to stay afloat during those stretches. So far, so good
 
De'Aaron Fox last 5 games (No Wemby, Castle only played half of one game, no Harper for 4 full games):

28.6 ppg
3.8 rpg
6.8 apg
1.8 spg
0.4 bpg
50.0% FG%
41.2% 3P%
64.2% TS%
2.2 TOV/gm
+7.8/gm

Spurs 4-1
 
It never gets old to witness grown ass men getting all emo after a game bc they think it validates their takes, tbh :ROFLMAO:
 
I'll wait to see, not necessarily the efficiency as much as the intentions, when Wemby is back to change my stance on him.
 
I'll wait to see, not necessarily the efficiency as much as the intentions, when Wemby is back to change my stance on him.
I guess we should pause all the baselinebums and Spurs fandom activities until your pass your final judgement.
 
Contrary to what BaselineBums amateur analysts may have to say... Fox has started out the season:
  • Career high in TS% @ .627, putting him 6th among point guards in the NBA (SGA, Suggs, Curry, Harden, Sheppard above him... Luka and Maxey right behind, followed by... Tre Jones!)
  • Career high in WS/48
  • PTS/36 of 25.3, which is not too far off from some of his highest scoring seasons (he's putting up points, but not playing as many minutes as in the past)
  • USG% is the lower than any season he had in SAC since he 2nd year in the league (maybe this is why folks perceive him to be less aggressive?)
  • Career high .380 3P% on 9.0 3PA/100 (second most of his career), career high 3PAr of .382
  • Career high .593 2P%
  • .328 FTr, which is a little higher than recent years, but earlier in his career he was much more of a FT merchant... would be nice to get back to that. For comparison, Castle's FTr is .548. Notable other FT merchants: Jimmy (.667), SGA (.465), Harden (.480), Luka (.537). Would be really nice to see Fox get in that .400+ range, but he has only done that once, his 3rd season in the league
Areas that can and need to be better:
  • Career low DRB% (but a career high ORB%)
  • 14.8% TOV% highest of since his 2nd season in the league... must improve
Now I'm leaning on becoming a Fox stan as well.
 
I guess we should pause all the baselinebums and Spurs fandom activities until your pass your final judgement.
???

My point is just that a game doesn't change anything, and the criticism is a lot more nuanced than what those who disagree want to portray.

I don't recall anyone saying Fox was done or not able to do his usual numbers, the question has always been about his complementarity with Wemby and overall fit considering the emergence of Castle and Harper.
 
My point is just that a game doesn't change anything, and the criticism is a lot more nuanced than what those who disagree want to portray.

I don't recall anyone saying Fox was done or not able to do his usual numbers, the question has always been about his complementarity with Wemby and overall fit considering the emergence of Castle and Harper.
No, the criticism wasn't nuanced, it was just about fans who haven't seen enough of Fox thinking that he's a different player than he actually is.
Described as an undersized, inefficent low effort chucker by the most clueless person on Spurstalk on the day he joined.

Instead we got a player who's everything opposite of those things he's being accused of.
So far he's playing on elite efficency.
Doesn't force things, in fact it looks like Mitch had to tell him to take more shots and be more selfish over the past few games.
His C&S 3pt looks great, meaning there won't be any issues when he's off the ball.

And most importantly, he's a way better defender than anyone advertised.
I said it when he joined, playing with competent rim protection instead of layup lane Sabonis will be a huge difference, but I didn't expect Fox to be this good defensively.
Don't get me wrong, he'll never be an all-NBA defender, he very well might be the best all-star point guard defender among regularly sized gurads.

Maxey, Mitchell, Brunson, Harden, Curry, Booker, Murray...Fox is a way better defender than all of them.
He's also better than Cade and Luka, despite the size difference.
SGA is the only great defender among elite lead guards.

And that's a huge thing for us, especially come the playoffs.
Fox guarded both Booker and Avdija for some stretches over the past two games. Not by mismatch hunting, but by design. And while he's obviously not an elite defensive stopper, he's maybe even the fastest player in the league and has elite hands. His steals aren't a product of him gambling the passing lanes all the time like Dejounte did, but he'll actually punish careless handles.
Which is enough for him to be a respectable defender and I doubt we'll ever see him being the designated target on defense like it's the case with all those lead guards I listed.
SGA is the only guard sized player who could really hurt Fox in their matchups, but he hurts everyone, can't do much about it.

As for the suboptimal things, he's obviously not an elite passer.
But he's smart enough to know his limits and it doesn't look like he'll throw many errant passes.
Those 6 assists he's averaging will be just enough.

Sidenote, but both C&S 3pts Harper took also looked really smooth and natural, I don't think Fox/Harper/Catle lineups will be an issue spacing wise.
Due to the already mentioned and somewhat unexpected defensive skills Fox has, that lineup won't have any size issues in most matchups.

As for his contract, I really hate how people are either 0 or 100 about it, when as per usual the truth is always inbetween.
There's almost always a compromise in trades.
The only reason we got Fox is that he was dirt cheap considering the instant impact value he adds and his preference to go to the Spurs were the decisive factor.
The compromise is that we had to give him a max extension, no questions asked. That was obviously pre-arranged before he even joined.

Is paying Fox 30% of the cap too much? Probably. (Don't mention 50, 60 or whatever million numbers when that's irrelevant, max contracts are given based on cap percentage.)
But it's not a massive overpay, he's surely a 25% player.
And most importantly we won't have any cap issues for two more years after this one and we won't be in the luxury tax for three more years.
And those tax issues will happen only if both Castle and Harper play their way into max extensions, which will obviously be a great thing for us.
And even if we get into those tax issues, it's going to be only for one year because Harper's first year of extension would be Fox's last year.
If the ownership can't afford one year of luxury tax on a top contender, what are we even talking about?

Fox will also always have value and be easy to trade unless catastrophic injuries happen, but that's a risk with every max contract.
If we decide to trade him in 2028 or 2029, it's going to be easy enough because he'll have 2 or 1 year left on his deal and be just 30/31.
Most teams are desperate to get a guard of his level and even if he declines a bit, he'll still be a great player. We won't get a haul back for him, but he'll never enter negative asset territory.

Another thing is that all the young contenders have overpaid players on their roster. That's how things function if you're competitive with a bunch of rookie contracts.
Is Hartenstein worth $28M a year? Not really, but only his final year causes cap issues and they can get out of it.

Bottom line is that Fox haters club is obsessed with a hypothetical situation that could happen in 2028 at the earliest while he's winning us games right now.
We were fucking garbage by Spurs standards for 5 years, we get arguably the best player we ever traded for, but not only that he wanted to come to the Spurs which was unheard of for decades, even during the best years, but it's still not enough for some of you doomers. Something always has to be wrong. You'd be happy only if we got a 25 year old KD 2.0 for 3 SRPs and Zach Collins.
At least try to look at things from a realistic angle from time to time.
(This isn't referring to just you, but a huge number of Spurs fans that can't understand all the variables required to pull of a Fox-like trade.)
 
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Contrary to what BaselineBums amateur analysts may have to say... Fox has started out the season:
  • Career high in TS% @ .627, putting him 6th among point guards in the NBA (SGA, Suggs, Curry, Harden, Sheppard above him... Luka and Maxey right behind, followed by... Tre Jones!)
  • Career high in WS/48
  • PTS/36 of 25.3, which is not too far off from some of his highest scoring seasons (he's putting up points, but not playing as many minutes as in the past)
  • USG% is the lower than any season he had in SAC since he 2nd year in the league (maybe this is why folks perceive him to be less aggressive?)
  • Career high .380 3P% on 9.0 3PA/100 (second most of his career), career high 3PAr of .382
  • Career high .593 2P%
  • .328 FTr, which is a little higher than recent years, but earlier in his career he was much more of a FT merchant... would be nice to get back to that. For comparison, Castle's FTr is .548. Notable other FT merchants: Jimmy (.667), SGA (.465), Harden (.480), Luka (.537). Would be really nice to see Fox get in that .400+ range, but he has only done that once, his 3rd season in the league
Areas that can and need to be better:
  • Career low DRB% (but a career high ORB%)
  • 14.8% TOV% highest of since his 2nd season in the league... must improve
I wonder how much of this is happening in the stretch without Wemby.
 
This is more along the lines of how I wanted/envisioned him playing. The numbers were good before, but I felt he could be a little more selfish. Passing also isn't his best attribute, but I respect that he's trying to share the ball and make passes/plays for teammates. I don't care about the misses, more him leading by being aggressive out there and taking him teammates along with him. I think it would give them more confidence to see him scoring and then passing to them giving them opportunities to also contribute.
 
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I wonder how much of this is happening in the stretch without Wemby.
Two things are certain:
1. Wemby obviously has to be the first option and highest usage player.
2. Wemby obviously needs to get th KD 2.0 idea out of his head because nothing good comes from it. Both him and his teammates benefit if he plays to his strengths like he did in the first few games of the season.
 
Yes, Victor is great, but the key is, he can't going do that stuff all the time because it also unintentionally freezes teammates out of games. Cut the turnovers and try and involve his teammates more with good passes (don't need the flashy type plays and stuff all the time). It was a bit tough trying to get De'Aaron to win that Warriors game when he really wasn't in rhythm most of the game.
 
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1. Wemby obviously has to be the first option and highest usage player.
2. Wemby obviously needs to get th KD 2.0 idea out of his head because nothing good comes from it. Both him and his teammates benefit if he plays to his strengths like he did in the first few games of the season.
I think that point 2 is really what's Wemby needs to accept but I have the feeling that this is part of him and it'll be hard to change that.
Personally, I want him to develop a reliable jumpshot, he is taller than everybody and should be able to hit those at a high percentage. I don't think that he'll be able to play inside because of his weight, he is always pushed around.
 
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