Player The Layne Staley Depression-Laden Foxhole of De'Aaron Martez Fox

[dn0774]

I can understand concern over his contract (or any non rookie contract for that matter). The simple fact is, though, that Fox's dollar amount just doesn't matter much until a potential Castle extension kicks in (3 years away). Castle commanding a max is not a given, could say the same for his entire draft class actually lol.

We gave Fox his insta-max because he saved us assets to acquire him from Sac, it was baked in as part of the trade and our books were able to absorb it without issue. We did it because we needed a serious infusion of talent around Wemby and we couldn't just sit back and wait for draft picks to develop or cross our fingers that Devin/Jeremy/Keldon would magically make leaps. The Timberwolves tried that around KG and ended up wasting his best years. Only by making trades/signings of established players (Cassell/Spree) did they actually start to have any real success.

 

[Exstatic]

It's the last thing that makes him look elite, but it won't last.

TP worked on a mid-range that extended his career once he lost his speed advantage, Fox doesn't have that

It's the last thing that makes him look elite, but it won't last.

TP worked on a mid-range that extended his career once he lost his speed advantage, Fox doesn't have that

Someone who has paid zero attention to Fox in the last 5 years

Career numbers:
3-10 feet .474
10-16 feet .440
16-3pt line .400

 

[KDKSpurs24]

Something I’ve been thinking about when it comes to Fox’s performance yesterday is that PHX might just be really good at defensive gameplans for individual players. I was really concerned by how Fox couldn’t even get by anyone last night but like many other people have said, he’s out on the court with a bunch on non threats so it’s easier for PHX to focus on him. We all have to remember that it was PHX who came up with that master blueprint on how to slow down Wemby and they did a fantastic job so I’ll just say they did a great job scheming against Fox’s strengths. I’m going to wait for a larger sample size and also when all of our key players get back before judging Fox’s ability. And I feel like we all should. Hopefully everyone will be back soon!

 

[scott]

Something I’ve been thinking about when it comes to Fox’s performance yesterday is that PHX might just be really good at defensive gameplans for individual players. I was really concerned by how Fox couldn’t even get by anyone past night but like many other people have said, he’s out on the court with a bunch on non threats so it’s easier for PHX to focus on him. We all have to remember that it was PHX who came up with that master blueprint on how to slow down Wemby and they did a fantastic job so I’ll just say they did a great job scheming against Fox’s strengths. I’m going to wait for a larger sample size and also when all of our key players get back before judging Fox’s ability. And I feel like we all should. Hopefully everyone will be back soon!

This seems to be overlooked. People are expecting Fox to come out and score 40 points and drag this team to victories against a team like Phoenix, who is not like they are a team of bums (currently 6th in the west, right behind us).

The Spurs WITH Wemby/Castle/Harper couldn't beat the Suns without Dillon Brooks... but Fox is expected to beat them without those guys? Does that mean folks are expecting Fox to be more impactful than Wemby, Castle and Harper combined? It just logically does not comprehend.

Until this team can play a stretch of games at full strength (or at least close to it), it's going to be really hard to really get a feel for what our true potential really is. Hopefully we don't go through this all season and we go into Wemby year 4 without major questions about the roster answered.

 

[Ice009]

I wasn't expecting a win, just was expecting Fox to play better/take over more on offense.

 

[frenchfred]

personally, when we signed Fox I was super happy and already thinking how can we keep Wemby, Castle, Harper and him when everybody is up for his contract. While his numbers look good, I'm not "impressed" when I watch the games in the sense that he doesn't seem to be able to take over on a nighty basis. At his current salary, I have no problem but if he still plays the same at 50-60 millions, it will be way overpaid.

Now, he is still new to the team, we keep having injuries preventing the team to play together and everybody to find their role, we'll see at the end of the season. I'm still hopeful that the Spurs will go directly to the playoff and win one series. Let's get this team healthy and enjoy it

 

[Ice009]

personally, when we signed Fox I was super happy and already thinking how can we keep Wemby, Castle, Harper and him when everybody is up for his contract. While his numbers look good, I'm not "impressed" when I watch the games in the sense that he doesn't seem to be able to take over on a nighty basis. At his current salary, I have no problem but if he still plays the same at 50-60 millions, it will be way overpaid.

Now, he is still new to the team, we keep having injuries preventing the team to play together and everybody to find their role, we'll see at the end of the season. I'm still hopeful that the Spurs will go directly to the playoff and win one series. Let's get this team healthy and enjoy it

I agree with all that you've said. I really was happy to get him and believed he'd be awesome for the Spurs, but I've been a little underwhelmed so far. I was thinking he's going to be like TP, getting into the paint at will and wrecking shop with his penetration and kicking it out to open players. I knew he wasn't a great pure PG, but I thought he could have that balance like TP (penetrating/scoring and passing the ball). However, like you said, the team just hasn't been healthy and he's still coming back. Gotta give him at least 15-20 games as he hasn't played in quite a while. But also, like you said, if he's still playing like this when he's earning 50-60 million, I'd be a bit worried.

And yes, I think we need everyone (especially the main guys) healthy and to see how it goes up to the end of the season (I still think you can/should trade some of the role players if there's a chance to get a better fit/upgrade there) and we shouldn't be all over him this early. I just want to see what it looks like with the big 4 healthy. I also would be very happy if the Spurs make the playoffs and win one series. I'd consider that a successful season and good building block to get players on the team valuable playoff experience. Making the playoffs is good, but winning at least one series would be much, much better and more valuable for the team going forward. Even Fox needs the experience of winning a playoff series.

 

[ginobilized]

This thread seems to be missing something crucial, Vassell abuse. Allow me.

I think Fox is good enough, smart enough and willing to adapt. He's still figuring out his role. As I see it, replace Vassell with a more effective and consistent player and boom! Fox can wreak more havoc. A player that drew more attention and was more of a 3pt threat, like TMIII, would give our starting lineup elite potential. Even replacing Vassell with Champagnie when Castle, Harper and Wemby return would give Fox some more room to operate. I see Vassell as a really odd fit with Fox. No one else on the roster strikes me that way. I hope we see some lineup variations this season.

 

[spurraider21]

This seems to be overlooked. People are expecting Fox to come out and score 40 points and drag this team to victories against a team like Phoenix, who is not like they are a team of bums (currently 6th in the west, right behind us).

The Spurs WITH Wemby/Castle/Harper couldn't beat the Suns without Dillon Brooks... but Fox is expected to beat them without those guys? Does that mean folks are expecting Fox to be more impactful than Wemby, Castle and Harper combined? It just logically does not comprehend.

Until this team can play a stretch of games at full strength (or at least close to it), it's going to be really hard to really get a feel for what our true potential really is. Hopefully we don't go through this all season and we go into Wemby year 4 without major questions about the roster answered.

im not expecting Fox to lead them to a win with a roster this depleted but i would like to see him go more into "takeover" mode and go down swinging. 26 points is a nice number, but his average for the last 5 years or so has been 25. its nights like these where he may need to take his aggression to another level just to give us a fighting chance. i'd rather us have lost with him scoring 37 than him scoring 26

its not like im asking Evan to go out there and score 25. Fox has shown he can go on serious heaters carry offenses to a greater degree than he has to for us... but as long as we are this shorthanded id like to see more of that alpha aggression out of him

 

[scott]

im not expecting Fox to lead them to a win with a roster this depleted but i would like to see him go more into "takeover" mode and go down swinging. 26 points is a nice number, but his average for the last 5 years or so has been 25. its nights like these where he may need to take his aggression to another level just to give us a fighting chance. i'd rather us have lost with him scoring 37 than him scoring 26

its not like im asking Evan to go out there and score 25. Fox has shown he can go on serious heaters carry offenses to a greater degree than he has to for us... but as long as we are this shorthanded id like to see more of that alpha aggression out of him

I get you... but I think it's important context that Fox is the very obvious focal point of the opposing defense with our Injury Report in its current state.

 

[spurraider21]

I get you... but I think it's important context that Fox is the very obvious focal point of the opposing defense with our Injury Report in its current state.

as star, max-level paid players typically are

 

[scott]

as star, max-level paid players typically are

And how many of those guys are consistently delivering while surrounded by a lineup of Luke Kornet, Harrison Barnes, Julian Champagnie and Devin Vassell?

Giannis and Luka are the only two I'd say are capable of carrying a supporting cast that weak... and I don't think anyone is claiming Fox is on the same level as Giannis or Luka.

Are we now pretending that Fox wasn't brought here to be a second star, not a lone superstar?

 

[spurraider21]

And how many of those guys are consistently delivering while surrounded by a lineup of Luke Kornet, Harrison Barnes, Julian Champagnie and Devin Vassell?

Giannis and Luka are the only two I'd say are capable of carrying a supporting cast that weak... and I don't think anyone is claiming Fox is on the same level as Giannis or Luka.

Are we now pretending that Fox wasn't brought here to be a second star, not a lone superstar?

again, im not suggesting Fox carry this depleted lineup into playoff contention, or road wins against good teams with regularity.

im saying that when other guys are out, star players sometimes have the herculean task of going above and beyond their typical scoring output, not just matching their averages. 26 points and 3 assists is not going to get it done on nights like that. even if we lost anyway, i want to see more of a killer. this is guy who scored 100 points in a 2 game stretch just last year for Sacto

he was brought here to be a 1b to wemby's 1a, at least offensively. and we know there are plenty of nights where wemby's offense kind of just looks lost and yeah, we probably want Fox (or Castle/Harper) to not just take a backseat to wemby every time. there should be plenty of nights where Fox leads the team in scoring, even if we are fully healthy. but when we are hurt, you need everybody to step their game up. role players need to take on bigger roles, and the star players have to dig deeper

 

[LeBowen]

And how many of those guys are consistently delivering while surrounded by a lineup of Luke Kornet, Harrison Barnes, Julian Champagnie and Devin Vassell?

Giannis and Luka are the only two I'd say are capable of carrying a supporting cast that weak... and I don't think anyone is claiming Fox is on the same level as Giannis or Luka.

Are we now pretending that Fox wasn't brought here to be a second star, not a lone superstar?

Don't forget that Spurs will never run a one-man offense again, so all the talk about Fox needing to drop 30+ every game while Wemby is out is pointless.
We'll always be team-oriented, even when that's not the right thing to do because I'd rather have Fox chuck some more shots than watch point Jeremy waste possessions.

 

[Amuseddaysleeper]

I didn’t love chair company, but friendship was hilarious

 

[Ice009]

im not expecting Fox to lead them to a win with a roster this depleted but i would like to see him go more into "takeover" mode and go down swinging. 26 points is a nice number, but his average for the last 5 years or so has been 25. its nights like these where he may need to take his aggression to another level just to give us a fighting chance. i'd rather us have lost with him scoring 37 than him scoring 26

its not like im asking Evan to go out there and score 25. Fox has shown he can go on serious heaters carry offenses to a greater degree than he has to for us... but as long as we are this shorthanded id like to see more of that alpha aggression out of him

That's the key word. I'm not expecting him to carry us to wins with this roster he has to work with, but I am looking for that alpha mentally from him. I don't care about the overall points and stats. I'm looking for the alpha mentality from him and I'm not seeing it.

 

[CrustyCoastBendFan]

Just as foretold, the Fox naysayers, armchair NBA scouts, keyboard physio doctors, therapists, and capologists have crawled out to shovel dirt on Fox’s grave after the Phoenix loss. A defeat without Wemby, Castle, or Harper, yet still sprinkled with vintage Friendship Crew antics from at least two-thirds of the gang. Luckily, Keldon appears determined to heroically distance himself from his fellow summa cum laude alums of Professor Pop’s (not the “give me some nasty” Pop) Pfizer College correspondence program in Citizenship and Government Social Justice—otherwise known as “it’s only basketball.” Meanwhile, Mitch, fresh from a heart-to-heart with the professor, unleashed PG Sochan and let Olynyk audition as a plump French power forward with guard flair and a passion for sailing.

Let me serve up some cold, hard facts to go with your feel's combo special. De’Aaron dropped 25 points on just 11 shots and a parade of 16 free throw attempts in the loss to Phoenix. Over the past five games without the aforementioned crew, he’s been putting up All-Star numbers: 26+ points, 7+ assists, 4+ rebounds, and 1.5+ steals per game, while drilling 44% from deep and rocking a 63.06% TS%—which is basically ELITE status in efficiency. The defense hasn’t been sparkling, but with all the best stoppers on the IR, it’s like patching a roof with duct tape—it’s holding. The Spurs dodged a blowout versus Phoenix and got the short end of the stick against Golden State. So, if you’re still blaming Fox for the defense, what more can you expect from folks committed to their own mysterious agendas? And yes, I’m aware Wemby suited up against the Warriors.


My favorite Chuckles is talking up Fox’s loss of explosiveness to a hamstring pull—how adorable. Fox's wheels are just fine, IMHO. Nothing I say or any reasoning I offer is ever intended to change anyone’s opinion.

 

[Ice009]

That's great, but he's still not aggressive enough. The guys he's playing with just aren't that good. He needs to lead more, and do it by showing the way. I don't care too much about those stats you've shown. I would be fine with 12-30 from the field if he were trying to do all he can to win. He's been playing like trying to fit in, and he played like it again in the Phoenix game. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I might be coming off harsh, but I was also one of the people that stuck up for him when people were talking about trading him before he even suited up this season. I expect more from him. I know he's capable of more. I want to see him play closer to his potential.

Cade Cunningham went something like 14-45 in a game a week or two ago that the Pistons won against the Wizards. I'm not asking for him to go to that extreme, but I'd rather he play towards that end of the spectrum. The Pistons were missing a bunch of players and Cade did what he could. Might not have had a great game statistically, but sometimes, that's what it takes.

 

[Exstatic]

That's great, but he's still not aggressive enough. The guys he's playing with just aren't that good. He needs to lead more, and do it by showing the way. I don't care too much about those stats you've shown. I would be fine with 12-30 from the field if he were trying to do all he can to win. He's been playing like trying to fit in, and he played like it again in the Phoenix game. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I might be coming off harsh, but I was also one of the people that stuck up for him when people were talking about trading him before he even suited up this season. I expect more from him. I know he's capable of more. I want to see him play closer to his potential.

Cade Cunningham went something like 14-45 in a game a week or two ago that the Pistons won against the Wizards. I'm not asking for him to go to that extreme, but I'd rather he play towards that end of the spectrum. The Pistons were missing a bunch of players and Cade did what he could. Might not have had a great game statistically, but sometimes, that's what it takes.

The thing is, once someone gets an expanded shot diet, it’s really hard to rein them back in. The reality is, we need our role players to perform, even on the road, if we ever want to be a title contender. That won’t happen if Fox just goes full Kobe. I’d rather take a few early Ls that hammer home that point to the supporting cast. They feel like shit because they sucked, and they want to improve.

 

[LeBowen]

The thing is, once someone gets an expanded shot diet, it’s really hard to rein them back in. The reality is, we need our role players to perform, even on the road, if we ever want to be a title contender. That won’t happen if Fox just goes full Kobe. I’d rather take a few early Ls that hammer home that point to the supporting cast. They feel like shit because they sucked, and they want to improve.

While I agree with your post I don't think the last sentence can apply to most of our supporting cast because they've done more than enough sucking over the past years.

 

[scott]

That's great, but he's still not aggressive enough. The guys he's playing with just aren't that good. He needs to lead more, and do it by showing the way. I don't care too much about those stats you've shown. I would be fine with 12-30 from the field if he were trying to do all he can to win. He's been playing like trying to fit in, and he played like it again in the Phoenix game. If you can't see that, I don't know what to tell you. I might be coming off harsh, but I was also one of the people that stuck up for him when people were talking about trading him before he even suited up this season. I expect more from him. I know he's capable of more. I want to see him play closer to his potential.

Cade Cunningham went something like 14-45 in a game a week or two ago that the Pistons won against the Wizards. I'm not asking for him to go to that extreme, but I'd rather he play towards that end of the spectrum. The Pistons were missing a bunch of players and Cade did what he could. Might not have had a great game statistically, but sometimes, that's what it takes.

But you realize we have a coaching staff who calls plays right... like, you want him to just go rogue and start calling his own number? That doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

 

[Ice009]

The thing is, once someone gets an expanded shot diet, it’s really hard to rein them back in. The reality is, we need our role players to perform, even on the road, if we ever want to be a title contender. That won’t happen if Fox just goes full Kobe. I’d rather take a few early Ls that hammer home that point to the supporting cast. They feel like shit because they sucked, and they want to improve.

I'm not going to argue against that strategy. I just don't think those guys are capable. If they get down on themselves and realize they need to play better, that's good, but are they capable of it?

While I agree with your post I don't think the last sentence can apply to most of our supporting cast because they've done more than enough sucking over the past years.

That's pretty much what I was thinking. I definitely don't disagree with his post, but these guys haven't seemed to have learned much from stinking it up these past few seasons. They don't seem to have taken the losing personally to do whatever it takes to start turning that around and being a positive influence in winning games.

But you realize we have a coaching staff who calls plays right... like, you want him to just go rogue and start calling his own number? That doesn't seem like a great idea to me.

Didn't De'Aaron himself say after one of the recent games that they want him to be more aggressive? Hasn't he stated that himself? I agree it's not a great idea if they're calling all the plays and want him to play this team game, that's on them, but I thought they wanted him being more aggressive out there?

 

[Exstatic]

While I agree with your post I don't think the last sentence can apply to most of our supporting cast because they've done more than enough sucking over the past years.

They can play better than that game. We didn’t need a ton more production to win there.

 

[scott]

Didn't De'Aaron himself saying after one of the recent games that they want him to be more aggressive? Hasn't he stated that himself? I agree it's not a great idea if they're calling all the plays and want him to play this team game, that's on them, but I thought they wanted him being more aggressive out there?

He did shoot 16 FTs the other night... usually that doesn't happen without some aggression, wouldn't you agree?

Can he be more aggressive/assertive? Sure. But I think a big part of that responsibility is on Mitch and the staff to create the environment for that to be successful. Phoenix is a pretty good team, and Fox (and Keldon and Champ) kept us in that game maybe even longer than we should have.

I would be game for more Fox aggression. I'm also game for more Teammate Fox. Basically... I want the Fox that is most conducive to winning basketball. We can all draw up our own ideas of which version of Fox that is, but ultimately only Mitch, Fox and his teammates can directly control that... and I personally don't want a Fox that is going against the game plan.

 

[Ice009]

He did shoot 16 FTs the other night... usually that doesn't happen without some aggression, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, OK, that is fair to say that. Getting that many free throws is usually a sign of aggression.

Can he be more aggressive/assertive? Sure. But I think a big part of that responsibility is on Mitch and the staff to create the environment for that to be successful. Phoenix is a pretty good team, and Fox (and Keldon and Champ) kept us in that game maybe even longer than we should have.

That's all I think (can he be more assertive - yes IMO). Maybe Mitch and the staff aren't telling him clearly enough what they want and/or are saying one thing and then running something different in games with their play calling.

I would be game for more Fox aggression. I'm also game for more Teammate Fox. Basically... I want the Fox that is most conducive to winning basketball. We can all draw up our own ideas of which version of Fox that is, but ultimately only Mitch, Fox and his teammates can directly control that... and I personally don't want a Fox that is going against the game plan.

I like what you said here. I also don't know which Fox is going to be the most conducive to winning. I guess I have my own ideas on what I think that would be. I think a more aggressive Fox would be, but I don't know because these guys just haven't played enough together, and they haven't tried enough things to see what works best. They can still try some stuff in the meantime, but really, they have to have a fully healthy big 4 to experiment and see what works best. It's frustrating that they haven't been able to do that yet.