Player Sochan's Extension Watch

[J_Posse301]

We might still have this issue where even a modest amount of ball movement leads to open 3’s. Thats not Jeremy’s specialty. We’re ok-ish with iso D. We need more length and athleticism to cover for what seems to be an iffy scheme.

We probably lose last night if he plays because he overall makes us worse and it was a close game.

Jeremy brings defense, length (alleged 7" wingspan) & athleticism, but somehow him playing would've "led to a loss?"

Make it make sense.

 

[ambchang]

It better be a fact in Fox’s case.
While in Sochans case, what exactly would he be fixing? Our defense is good. He can help with it but defense isn’t an issue.

TO’s, missed FTs, and bad 3 point shooting are our issues. And Sochan helps with none of those

True. Though Spurs have issues with defensive execution still and even though the spurs looks good numbers wise on defense after a 2 game sample, id say it has more to do with neither team having good point guards who can run a proper offense.

Dallas and rockets are both having issues now getting into sets with their jumbo lineups so it goes to show having a pg is still important in today’s game.

Fears seems like a good scoring point but he will have to learn how to run an offence which is extremely difficult to do.

On offence we ran quite a few high pick and rolls. Both castle and Harper seems to have a knack of driving to the basket with minimal space which is a huge asset to have. Either that or just the Mavs and pels suck on defence. They also will stroke it if you leave them open so you can’t just sag off them. Even with minimal shooting, there are still ways to iso wemby and have other players cut while Barnes and champ spots up. Kornet pairs well with wemby and he doesn’t shoot (hasn’t yet) from outside. Vassell has been playing quite well so far even though I’m not sure it’s $27M good. Sochan would likely struggle offensively like he always does but if he can start launching threes when he’s opened then you have to stick someone on him even if he shoots 28%.

I have quite a bit of confidence in MATFOs offensive schemes as they seem to be creative in exploiting the strengths of the lineup and create something from it. We can choose to play like everybody else even though our players are not suitable for it, or we can play in a way that takes advantages of our strengths.

 

[J_Posse301]

The offensive issue with a non shooting forward isn't only the pairing with Wemby, it's the fit with Spurs' backcourt. Fox, Castle and likely Harper are players who like to drive to the basket. If an opponent forward can sag off his player and clog the paint, it will hurt Spurs' guards. There is also Wemby's willingness to play closer to the basket to be more efficient who doesn't fit with a non-shooting forward.
The open question after that is: how much will that non-shooting hurt the offense?

My stance is that it will hurt Spurs' offense a lot and what Sochan can bring in other aspects of the game (defense and rebounding) is nowhere near enough to compensate that.

Sochan's numbers were fine last season with Spurs but roster has changed a lot since that by going from a Paul/Vassell to a Fox/Castle backcourt.

They can use Jeremy in more dribble hand-off action or play in transition to mitigate a set defense. They should play fast since speed & athleticism (especially at guard) is a strength, now.

Everyone on the Spurs isn't gonna likely be a quality shooter ever, so figuring out how to use non-shooters (like they were doing with Sochan & Wesley last season) is gonna be important.

And everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Jeremy is still the 2nd or 3rd best defender on the team and one of the better rebounders (especially on the offensive glass). He still brings qualities that the Spurs need and have yet to replace, IMO.

 

[PanameSpur]

The offensive issue with a non shooting forward isn't only the pairing with Wemby, it's the fit with Spurs' backcourt. Fox, Castle and likely Harper are players who like to drive to the basket. If an opponent forward can sag off his player and clog the paint, it will hurt Spurs' guards. There is also Wemby's willingness to play closer to the basket to be more efficient who doesn't fit with a non-shooting forward.
The open question after that is: how much will that non-shooting hurt the offense?

My stance is that it will hurt Spurs' offense a lot and what Sochan can bring in other aspects of the game (defense and rebounding) is nowhere near enough to compensate that.

Sochan's numbers were fine last season with Spurs but roster has changed a lot since that by going from a Paul/Vassell to a Fox/Castle backcourt.

Thank you Bruno (Good to see u here btw

I've been saying the exact same thing for the last 2 seasons and been called a hater.

It's all about balance, and Sochan costs a lot more than he (occasionally) brings.

His profile is a nonsense for the style of the team and players we have.

 

[Shmurs]

Jeremy brings defense, length (alleged 7" wingspan) & athleticism, but somehow him playing would've "led to a loss?"

Make it make sense.

He’s not athletic, though, and isn’t alleged to be athletic by anyone. He has poor verticality from a standing position which limits his ability to self create in the paint and get meaningful rebounds that lead to 2nd chance points.

He also appears to have highly inflated measurements. He doesn’t appear as tall as he’s listed and it’s obvious his arms aren’t “long” like you see with a guy like Bridges and dozens of others. You claim he’s long because these are the numbers the team has put out but it’s very obviously not the case.

His physical gift is that he’s moderately nimble for his size. But even that’s hard to distinguish from a high motor.

 

[Splits]

Last year, of the Friendship Crew, Sochan was the only one who wasn't net-negative going by on/off ORtg splits. He was +0.5, so essentially net-neutral. Vasselline was -7.3 and Keldumb -5.5 (for reference, Wemby was +9.6).

Sure, this isn't the same team, fits are different, not a perfect metric etc, but still worth taking as a data point.

 

[J_Posse301]

He’s not athletic, though, and isn’t alleged to be athletic by anyone. He has poor verticality from a standing position which limits his ability to self create in the paint and get meaningful rebounds that lead to 2nd chance points.

He also appears to have highly inflated measurements. He doesn’t appear as tall as he’s listed and it’s obvious his arms aren’t “long” like you see with a guy like Bridges and dozens of others. You claim he’s long because these are the numbers the team has put out but it’s very obviously not the case.

His physical gift is that he’s moderately nimble for his size. But even that’s hard to distinguish from a high motor.

Anything either of us states is conjecture since Jeremy didn't participate in the draft combine.

I said, he is alleged to have a 7 foot wingspan not that it's "alleged" he's athletic. He's clearly athletic to some degree, especially as a combo forward that is more suited to PF, but doesn't have elite verticality like a Miles Bridges, Carter Bryant or Ausar Thompson. That is obvious & we agree on this one point.

He actually got better at finishing in the paint (66.8% closer than 5 feet), doesn't need to self-create since he's a 5th wheel on offense, and was top 4 in rebound percentage (10%) on the team.

He's basically a Kevon Looney - type & that guy has 3 NBA titles to his name, yet non-shooters are 'worthless' by folks here's flawed logic.

 

[PanameSpur]

Jeremy brings defense, length (alleged 7" wingspan) & athleticism, but somehow him playing would've "led to a loss?"

Make it make sense.

Because you seem to want to ignore the cost of having him of the floor

He allows opponents to pack the paint who leave him bc he can't shoot, he also pushes Wemby to the perimeter bc of his game based on offensive rebounds and being spoon fed in the paint.

No one denies his defensive impact (although he often misses rotation bc of his notorious lack of focus) but he ends up costing more than he brings bc he handicaps our offense.

It's basic math, really.

 

[Shmurs]

Anything either of us states is conjecture since Jeremy didn't participate in the draft combine.

I said, he is alleged to have a 7 foot wingspan not that it's "alleged" he's athletic. He's clearly athletic to some degree, especially as a combo forward that is more suited to PF, but doesn't have elite verticality like a Miles Bridges, Carter Bryant or Ausar Thompson. That is obvious & we agree on this one point.

He actually got better at finishing in the paint (66.8% closer than 5 feet), doesn't need to self-create since he's a 5th wheel on offense, and was top 4 in rebound percentage (10%) on the team.

He's basically a Kevon Looney - type & that guy has 3 NBA titles to his name, yet non-shooters are 'worthless' by folks here's flawed logic.

There’s this thing where every single player he’s compared to is significantly smarter and more reliable, which makes the comparisons pretty iffy.

You can be a non-shooter. On some/most teams. They can have one. But you can’t be a non-shooter with negative IQ. my issue with him has always been how he just doesn’t understand half court basketball. At all. Or he understands it but isn’t able to process it. Either way he ruins possessions, single handedly. Just murders whatever context he’s supposed to exist in.

 

[J_Posse301]

Sochan can't make those reads nor those passes when he occasionally makes the reads. I don't understand those comparisons tbh.

He's clumsy with the ball and head down when he gets it. He can't create his own shot in the post bc his ball handling is too weak and he can't matchup vs athletic 4s-5s.

The only way to make Sochan shine is to adapt our whole offense to him, leaving him the offensive rebounds and spoon feeding him in the paint. Why should we sacrifice Wemby for him??

I genuinely think there's an "affection" factor from PATFO and some fans that refuse to admit the obvious. We'd have all loved for it to work, he's a cool kid and has loves defending but he already had +3y and places are limited.

He can't make all those reads or passes, yes, but he can make some of them. Especially to a 7'5"/7'6" teammate that has been playing volleyball through two games.

Shit, Vasselll the guy that y'all claimed was icing Victor out two years ago & not throwing the 'easy' lob pass can now regularly find Victor on the lob.

Jeremy will never be a Draymond level passer or playmaker, but he has shown improvement in that area (whether people on here admit it or not).

And no one wants a role player to 'shine' () but they do want to mitigate his offensive shortcomings for the betterment of the team & him.

 

[J_Posse301]

There’s this thing where every single player he’s compared to is significantly smarter and more reliable, which makes the comparisons pretty iffy.

You can be a non-shooter. On some/most teams. They can have one. But you can’t be a non-shooter with negative IQ. my issue with him has always been how he just doesn’t understand half court basketball. At all. Or he understands it but isn’t able to process it. Either way he ruins possessions, single handedly. Just murders whatever context he’s supposed to exist in.

What evidence other than in your own head is there that he has "no IQ?"

Saying that Miles Bridges is "smart and reliable" is a huge, huge stretch and proves you are just spinning your wheels (to hate on Sochan).

 

[Shmurs]

If you’re saying that Jeremy is at all gifted at locating Vic, then we have a bigger problem here, with this discussion.

 

[Shmurs]

What evidence other than in your own head is there that he has "no IQ?"

Saying that Miles Bridges is "smart and reliable" is a huge, huge stretch and proves you are just spinning your wheels (to hate on Sochan).

Bridges shoots. I don’t know why you’re comparing the two. Very different players. But sure - got me. But this is like comparing him with DLo. Sure another rocket scientist whose game has nothing to do with Jeremy’s.

There are other dumb players in the league. That’s correct. I think you’re playing whack a mole with various rationalizations here.

But to answer your question with a question - is it a sign of intelligence when you always take the bait to dribble into the paint and then when you run out of room you stop dribbling and look around in panic wondering what you’re supposed to do next? If this happens virtually every game, does that mean he reads defenses intelligently?

 

[J_Posse301]

If you’re saying that Jeremy is at all gifted at locating Vic, then we have a bigger problem here, with this discussion.

Who said anything about "gifted?"

I said he can work on throwing that short roll lob to Victor in the dunker's spot. Or be the hand off man in dribble hand-off sets.

Never said he had a gift or was an elite passer like Draymond is.

 

[Shmurs]

He’s so bad at it, in fact, that people have accused him of intentionally icing Vic out. We shouldn’t expect him to be capable at this going forward.

 

[J_Posse301]

Bridges shoots. I don’t know why you’re comparing the two. Very different players. But sure - got me. But this is like comparing him with DLo. Sure another rocket scientist whose game has nothing to do with Jeremy’s.

There are other dumb players in the league. That’s correct. I think you’re playing whack a mole with various rationalizations here.

But to answer your question with a question - is it a sign of intelligence when you always take the bait to dribble into the paint and then when you run out of room you stop dribbling and look around in panic wondering what you’re supposed to do next? If this happens virtually every game, does that mean he reads defenses intelligently?

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

I said that Jeremy wasn't an elite vertical athlete such as Ausar, Miles or Carter. Somehow you thought I was comparing them as players, I wasn't, and stated that they are all smart & reliable whereas Jeremy isn't.

Again, I laughed at you for calling Miles Bridges smart and reliable. I wasn't saying Jeremy is better than Miles, he isn't, but he is surely smarter and more reliable than him.

Also, plenty of players drive, to then pick up their dribble in traffic & being forced to pass back out. Tatum, Brown, Vasselll & numerous other players have that bad habit.

Everyone can't be an instinctive driver like Fox & Parker. That's why you negate that issue by playing Sochan closer to the dunker's spot, have him set the screen/hand-off the ball or cut to the rim off-ball. Don't have him play with the ball in his hand trying to drive much.

 

[PanameSpur]

He can't make all those reads or passes, yes, but he can make some of them. Especially to a 7'5"/7'6" teammate that has been playing volleyball through two games.

Shit, Vasselll the guy that y'all claimed was icing Victor out two years ago & not throwing the 'easy' lob pass can now regularly find Victor on the lob.

Jeremy will never be a Draymond level passer or playmaker, but he has shown improvement in that area (whether people on here admit it or not).

And no one wants a role player to 'shine' () but they do want to mitigate his offensive shortcomings for the betterment of the team & him.

Not sure anyone said Vassell was better but it's a fact that in the 2nd part of Wemby's rookie season Devin put an emphasis working on his connection with Vic. It ended with a lot of assists between them. At even a higher rate than Wemby had with Tre, which shows that if/when Devin wants, he can btw...

Sochan for a few made, missed tons of them and as for Tre Jones at that time I'm not sure if he just didn't make the reads or (like Tre admitted in interview) just didn't want to try by fear of a TO (= doesn't have the kills to do it).

But again it's not just one aspect, that is the issue, we can always argue individually but it's the combination/big picture that make him difficult to use.

It's not just the shooting, or just the passing, or just the lack of athleticism vs 4s-5s, or his clumsiness (yes he is, I'm sorry but we could do a clip of all the gimmies he missed or blocked by the rim bc he's not THAT athletic), or his inability to create his own shot (needs to be spoon fed at the rim or get put backs).

It's the BIG PICTURE

 

[PanameSpur]

Who said anything about "gifted?"

I said he can work on throwing that short roll lob to Victor in the dunker's spot. Or be the hand off man in dribble hand-off sets.

Never said he had a gift or was an elite passer like Draymond is.

These lobs usually come off the dribble or in the flow of the action, it requires a "feel" for the game and with the ball that Sochan just doesn't have.

He's been with Wemby since his draft day and probably had more training sessions with him that anyone, if after +2 years he still can't do it, it's insane to still hope it'll happen... It was already insane year one and made the whole league LOL at him ad other not seing Wemby alone "under" the basket...

 

[PanameSpur]

You need to work on your reading comprehension skills.

I said that Jeremy wasn't an elite vertical athlete such as Ausar, Miles or Carter. Somehow you thought I was comparing them as players, I wasn't, and stated that they are all smart & reliable whereas Jeremy isn't.

Again, I laughed at you for calling Miles Bridges smart and reliable. I wasn't saying Jeremy is better than Miles, he isn't, but he is surely smarter and more reliable than him.

Also, plenty of players drive, to then pick up their dribble in traffic & being forced to pass back out. Tatum, Brown, Vasselll & numerous other players have that bad habit.

Everyone can't be an instinctive driver like Fox & Parker. That's why you negate that issue by playing Sochan closer to the dunker's spot, have him set the screen/hand-off the ball or cut to the rim off-ball. Don't have him play with the ball in his hand trying to drive much.

I don't think Sochan is smart.

Just listen to him speak...

We're talking about a pro athlete eating pizza WITH KETCHUP ON IT after training

He's socially smart, I give him that, which is a different type of intelligence, just not the one we need on a basketball floor.

 

[Bruno]

They can use Jeremy in more dribble hand-off action or play in transition to mitigate a set defense. They should play fast since speed & athleticism (especially at guard) is a strength, now.

Everyone on the Spurs isn't gonna likely be a quality shooter ever, so figuring out how to use non-shooters (like they were doing with Sochan & Wesley last season) is gonna be important.

And everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that Jeremy is still the 2nd or 3rd best defender on the team and one of the better rebounders (especially on the offensive glass). He still brings qualities that the Spurs need and have yet to replace, IMO.

A team can have some non shooter on their roster but Spurs already have them with Fox and Castle. If Spurs had a backcourt that was more perimeter shooting oriented, a non shooter like Sochan would be less of an issue.

Playing in transition could work great in regular season but not so much in playoffs and Spurs, given how great Wembanyama is, are aiming to win playoffs series. Sochan's lack of shooting would be exploited like Giddey's one was with OKC in 2024.

And I'm quite rooting for Sochan:

First, if he comes back from his injury with an improved 3 point shot, which seems unlikely, I wouldn't hesitate to give the starting spot and to sign him next summer to a $20M per year new contract.
Second, if Sochan fails, Spurs don't really have a good option at PF: Barnes is an aging stopgap, Champagnie is limited and more of a SF, Keldon is a bad fit, Bryant has a long way to go.

 

[scott]

I'm pretty far on the "Hate" end of the Jeremy spectrum, but some of ya'll have a borderline unhealthy obsession

We're safe from his extension guys... it's gonna be okay.

 

[ribenbaum]

I'm reading this whole thread about Sochan and I'm wondering if Spurs fans have ever had a player like that in the past that everyone was so „proud of” ? Serious question

 

[dn0774]

A team can have some non shooter on their roster but Spurs already have them with Fox and Castle. If Spurs had a backcourt that was more perimeter shooting oriented, a non shooter like Sochan would be less of an issue.

Playing in transition could work great in regular season but not so much in playoffs and Spurs, given how great Wembanyama is, are aiming to win playoffs series. Sochan's lack of shooting would be exploited like Giddey's one was with OKC in 2024.

And I'm quite rooting for Sochan:

First, if he comes back from his injury with an improved 3 point shot, which seems unlikely, I wouldn't hesitate to give the starting spot and to sign him next summer to a $20M per year new contract.
Second, if Sochan fails, Spurs don't really have a good option at PF: Barnes is an aging stopgap, Champagnie is limited and more of a SF, Keldon is a bad fit, Bryant has a long way to go.

One thing I would like to say as someone who watched more Kings games than I would like to admit; Fox is not a non-shooter. He gets defended closely on the 3 point line. He is streaky, he takes lots of off the dribble pull ups and step backs, he takes heaves at buzzers and bail out shots. These things depress his percentages.

Not saying he is going to be a great shooter, but he will be actively defended at the 3 point line unlike Sochan and to a lesser extent Castle. If I was told Fox shot 36% on 3s this year I wouldn’t question it. Fox and Harper aren’t snipers but they should fare better than Sochan and Castle by a fair margin at 3 point shooting.

 

[poopbox]

Also without fox. What’s your point. Trust me this schtick isn’t as smart as you think it is.

Pretty dumb to mention fox in the same sentence as a guy who can't dribble a basketball or shoot.

 

[ambchang]

Pretty dumb to mention fox in the same sentence as a guy who can't dribble a basketball or shoot.

Prey try dumb to repeat a pointless schtick that means nothing.