So which one are we trading?

[Valparaiso]

IMO, whomever we get to fulfil the hypothetical role Jonathan Isaac would have really should only be making somewhere between $5-8MM. A lot of these guys (like Isaac) signed these deals before the new CBA and haven't been repriced for the new economics (Harrison Barnes and Kelly Olynyk amongst them).

Backup veteran PF/C money seems like it should be in line with these off-season signings going forward, IMO:

Capela - 3/21
Lopez - 2/18
Yabu - 2/11
Mo Wagner - 1/5
Nance - Vet Min
Isaiah Jackson - 3/21
Bagley - 1/3

Everyone signed above that around the MLE plays a bigger role (Portis, Aldama, DFS). So unless we're talking a 20mpg/gm or more guy, no reason to go higher than deals like the ones above, IMO.

I generally agree, though Kornet is making more than those guys and he's a back up C in theory.

Isaac is such an odd case... the year before last, he was a super sub and insanely impactful while only playing 15.8 mpg. Last year he bulked up to be able to play more center and his impact went down a bunch. I thought asking a versatile defender to bulk up was a bad idea to begin win-- his strength was being incredibly switchable, not being a banger in the paint. He has supposedly slimmed back down this year, but is out of the rotation. I don't know if the years of injuries have caught up with him, but if he could replicate his '24 defense, he could be worth the slight overpay before Wemby's max contract kicks in. I guess one question we'd have to ask is whether or not we think a title in '27 or '28 is a reasonable goal, or if the Spurs think that would be rushing/skipping steps.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

I think we should be a bit more patient with Barnes, he is obviously not in his prime and we should not expect a season as good as last one but we should also not draw conclusion based on those 3 games. Last year last 7 games he was at 20 ppg at >.50 from 3 (season at .43). He is having a slow start not connecting 3s (2 on 11) but it won't stay like that, we will have a better picture after 10/15 games. If we have him at .37 ish from 3 for 10 ppg he is still a useful vet especially not knowing what kind of Sochan we will get. 3 pts shooting is a big issue for the Spurs, he showed his whole career that he is more than decent at that, it would make no sense to trade him knowing that at his age we won't get an elite player also considering he will be a unrestricted free agent at the end of the season.

I‘m not talking about this recent stretch. We know who Barnes is. He was the worst defender on the team last season. He is by far our weakest link. One of Sochan, Barnes and Olynyk might take the back up PF spot and the other 2 have to be packaged for a starter. It’s just the easiest way to improve the team further.

 

[brazil]

I‘m not talking about this recent stretch. We know who Barnes is. He was the worst defender on the team last season. He is by far our weakest link. One of Sochan, Barnes and Olynyk might take the back up PF spot and the other 2 have to be packaged for a starter. It’s just the easiest way to improve the team further.

well I disagree he is not our weakest link by any stretch of our imagination... his offense (based on last year number even considering a drop off) is more valuable than Sochan defense for this squad. Spurs are missing 3s shooting and shooting in general, Sochan and Olynyk won't do anything in that regard. Then for the title of worst defender there are some other candidates for that, he is obviously below average but not a black hole either.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

well I disagree he is not our weakest link by any stretch of our imagination... his offense (based on last year number even considering a drop off) is more valuable than Sochan defense for this squad. Spurs are missing 3s shooting and shooting in general, Sochan and Olynyk won't do anything in that regard. Then for the title of worst defender there are some other candidates for that, he is obviously below average but not a black hole either.

stats say he's as bad as Keldon and those 2 were the worst. Your personal feelings won't change those analytics.

 

[ambchang]

well I disagree he is not our weakest link by any stretch of our imagination... his offense (based on last year number even considering a drop off) is more valuable than Sochan defense for this squad. Spurs are missing 3s shooting and shooting in general, Sochan and Olynyk won't do anything in that regard. Then for the title of worst defender there are some other candidates for that, he is obviously below average but not a black hole either.

Olynyk shoots 37% on 1.8/5 per 36 throughout his career. Could have higher volumes but he can most definitely help.

 

[brazil]

stats say he's as bad as Keldon and those 2 were the worst. Your personal feelings won't change those analytics.

My personal feeling ? Thanks for confirming he was not the worst and agreeing on the offense he brings. lol weakest link, not sure you paid attention last year

 

[brazil]

 

[flox]

I once again am asking for Castle to be added to the poll

 

[TimmyBuckets]

Sochan is way in the lead lol. Hope he learns to shoot and takes less money lmaoo otherwise he's gone

 

[dn0774]

I once again am asking for Castle to be added to the poll

Castle as a lead ball handler has been extremely concerning but he is on year 2 of a relatively cheaper contract. Probably better to ride it out and move him into his more appropriate role of PoA defender/secondary creator to Fox and Harper once Fox returns.

 

[twodeep]

Castle as a lead ball handler has been extremely concerning but he is on year 2 of a relatively cheaper contract. Probably better to ride it out and move him into his more appropriate role of PoA defender/secondary creator to Fox and Harper once Fox returns.

Castle is a SG/SF that should be a secondary ball handler he is filling in ok as the primary but in reality he should never be the main unless injuries force him into that role he is not a PG

 

[mudyez]

I voted Barnes but feel like none will leave inseason.

Some questions:

Barnes - Might as well trade the expiring for something. But if we feel like on a run (not Championship, but 2nd round), having a veteran presence like Barnes would really help, right?

Vassel - Would it be wise to cash in as long as his value is up? He fits well but once Fox comes back, he seems overpaid as a prime bench player.

Sochan - I feel like we need a guy that can take on the challenge of defending guys like Luka, Durant, Giannis...and Sochan can...but how much shooting do we need to make it worthwhile. In some games I felt like he cuts so well and has some great cohesion with Wemby, that shooting isn't even that important.

Keldon - This guy had to be put on suicide watch when he thought, he'd be in the Fox trade? Can we really live with him leaving? And will he stay for a discount, once his contract is up?

Fox - I'm looking forward to his comeback and think we will love to have him on the team. But how will it look in 2 or 3 years? Will he (+Klutch) be ok with a trade, or will we be forced to trade other guys just to don't lose face?

Champagnie - Probably our best non rookie contract asset. How much will we have to pay him soon? Would it be better to move on earlier?

 

[AFBlue]

Need to keep Keldon and Barnes exactly where they are purely for chemistry purposes--Keldon the fiery emotional leader and Barnes the steady calm presence.

As for the poll, too early to tell. Need to see how Sochan shoots and whether Olynyk can play solid third big minutes. If either are true, there's no need to push anyone out yet.

 

[flox]

Castle as a lead ball handler has been extremely concerning but he is on year 2 of a relatively cheaper contract. Probably better to ride it out and move him into his more appropriate role of PoA defender/secondary creator to Fox and Harper once Fox returns.

If we are hunting bigger fish he's the best piece to move. He has outperformed his draft slot and as an asset is worth more than what we spent in draft capital to get him, and we have less team control with him than we do with future FRP.

Early season returns suggest that his value is trending downward, sure we can ride it out and move him into the role outlined, but I would not be surprised if we sell.

 

[ambchang]

Jeez I knew you guys would turn on castle but never would I have thought after four games.

Maybe, just maybe people can finally realize a player in the wrong role will always be disappointing? There’s overwhelming evidence over the years.

Billups early in his career when he was forced into a setup guard only role.
Diaw as some PF
Even curry as some traditional PG.

They just don’t live up to their potential.

Being a PG is also one of the hardest things to do in the nba. I’m not sure if castle will ever be able to be a pure PG but it takes more than a few dozen games.

 

[Ice009]

Great post to put things into perspective. We're seeing it now with Cooper Flagg. He was supposed to be the runaway rookie of the year, but playing him out of position is really making him not look too good. He's A LOT better than he's shown so far.

I'm one of the biggest Castle fans around, but I'm more than willing to give him a lot more time at PG (if he were to continue playing the spot) before saying he can't do it. The only thing I have a slight worry about is his shooting, but that was there before. I just want to see him get his free throws down and incorporate a mid-range shot and work his way from there.

 

[KobesAchilles]

Jeez I knew you guys would turn on castle but never would I have thought after four games.

Maybe, just maybe people can finally realize a player in the wrong role will always be disappointing? There’s overwhelming evidence over the years.

Billups early in his career when he was forced into a setup guard only role.
Diaw as some PF
Even curry as some traditional PG.

They just don’t live up to their potential.

Being a PG is also one of the hardest things to do in the nba. I’m not sure if castle will ever be able to be a pure PG but it takes more than a few dozen games.

Should Castle be benched? I’m not hating on him but I’m wondering what to do with him. Fox coming back basically takes up Castles entire role. And with Devin playing like he’s playing I think you have Devin as your 3rd option in the starting line up.

A Castle/Harper bench mob would play at a crazy pace. Add in Kornet setting good strong screens and I think they both just feast at the rim every time down the court.

 

[Ice009]

I really have no idea. I think you just gotta let it play out and see what happens when Fox comes back.

 

[ambchang]

Should Castle be benched? I’m not hating on him but I’m wondering what to do with him. Fox coming back basically takes up Castles entire role. And with Devin playing like he’s playing I think you have Devin as your 3rd option in the starting line up.

A Castle/Harper bench mob would play at a crazy pace. Add in Kornet setting good strong screens and I think they both just feast at the rim every time down the court.

To be honest that is for Mitch to decide. I know that's a cop out but they are way smarter basketball wise.

Once Fox is back Castle doesn't have to be the PG, so he can play off ball as the secondary ball handler, which would work great for him. Not sure why Mitch isn't putting Harper Castle lineups more (we saw some in the Nets and Raptors games but I wanted more) but that looks like a totally workable lineup, maybe worries about neither of them being particularly good at catch and shoots?

 

[Mugen]

It's taken us almost a decade to build a competent NBA team again and everybody is quick to try and break it apart

 

[flox]

Jeez I knew you guys would turn on castle but never would I have thought after four games.

Maybe, just maybe people can finally realize a player in the wrong role will always be disappointing? There’s overwhelming evidence over the years.

Billups early in his career when he was forced into a setup guard only role.
Diaw as some PF
Even curry as some traditional PG.

They just don’t live up to their potential.

Being a PG is also one of the hardest things to do in the nba. I’m not sure if castle will ever be able to be a pure PG but it takes more than a few dozen games.

Taking into account asset value and potential redundancy, Castle should be the no brainer to move if we need to bring in actual help.

I don't see how an argument that Castle is in the wrong role right now isn't an argument that he should be moved, tbh.

If we have a real hole in February and we have a good player in the wrong role for our needs and is a top team value trade asset, that player should be the logical answer to the poll question.

Now if Vassell or Sochan becomes the better answer to that question, then it makes sense to trade them instead.

 

[k....]

implicit in the answer is who brings value. sochan is underwhelming , hell like be a restricted FA soon so why not buy then, or wait for him to be actual FA. keldon is average really, every other player you trade will return an equally flawed player or bad contract.

 

[ambchang]

Taking into account asset value and potential redundancy, Castle should be the no brainer to move if we need to bring in actual help.

I don't see how an argument that Castle is in the wrong role right now isn't an argument that he should be moved, tbh.

If we have a real hole in February and we have a good player in the wrong role for our needs and is a top team value trade asset, that player should be the logical answer to the poll question.

Now if Vassell or Sochan becomes the better answer to that question, then it makes sense to trade them instead.

Castle is still on his rookie deal so if you were to trade him away, you won't get a player of similar abilities in terms of salary match, unless you trade with a team way under the cap, or find a young player also on a rookie/bargain deal who happens to play the 3/4. I can't find a team like that so he would either be packged with a high dollar value deal (say, Vassell) or for high potential picks.

Not sure exactly what type of actual help we are desperately looking for, given it's 4 games into the season, but to give away a player like Castle because of a potential logjam that has yet to happen is just odd logic. Him currently being in the wrong role doesn't mean that we have a logjam, I see it more as the coaching staff forcing him to grow in a role that he is not good at yet, as a training exercise, how that would end up I don't know, but a team can never have too many ball handlers. To give him away now would be like how the Cavs got rid of Kevin Johnson because they have Mark Price, or how the Mavs didn't resign Nash because they wanted the ball in Dirk's hands more.

Castle is a talented player who has shown nothing but a growth in the year and a bit he's been in the league, to trade him now to get help, whatever that is, is premature. Now if some guy comes and said they are trading Jokic for Castle he'd be on a the plane in 3 minutes and I will personally pack his bags, but that isn't really the question, the question is who are we trading for some actual help, which really isn't defined. Trading Castle away for some 3-D player, or some shooting PF (which I am thinking in terms of Jabari Smith Jr) is way overkill. Someone like Vassell plus a few 2nd rounders should be closer in value.

 

[RC_Drunkford]

My personal feeling ? Thanks for confirming he was not the worst and agreeing on the offense he brings. lol weakest link, not sure you paid attention last year

what did I confirm? He had the same DBPM as Keldon, worst on the entire team. You think that changed now because he hit a couple of 3s? He won't shoot 43% from 3 this season, nor has he ever done it before.

Barnes is a nice vet, makes the smart play and can shoot 3s. But that's about it. He's a back up PF on a title team, not a starter. He can't defend the top PFs like Aaron Gordon, Chet, AD, Randle, Zion, Markkanen, etc. etc.

You're probably the same guy who was obsessed with Trey Lyles as a starting PF when we had him.

Name one starting PF in the West that is worse than Barnes. Here I'll list them for you, just like I did when all of you were sucking off Trey fucking Lyles. I'll even add some bench players:

Aaron Gordon
Lauri Markkanen
Alperen Sengun
Chet Holmgren
Julius Randle/Naz Reid
Zion Williamson
Rui Hachimura
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard/John Collins
Keegan Murray
Anthony Davis/PJ Washington/Cooper Flagg
Royce O'Neal
Jaren Jackson Jr./Santi Aldama
Toumani Camara/Jerami Grant

He's not better than any of these which makes him the worst starting PF in the entire conference period.

 

[OK Computer]

what did I confirm? He had the same DBPM as Keldon, worst on the entire team. You think that changed now because he hit a couple of 3s? He won't shoot 43% from 3 this season, nor has he ever done it before.

Barnes is a nice vet, makes the smart play and can shoot 3s. But that's about it. He's a back up PF on a title team, not a starter. He can't defend the top PFs like Aaron Gordon, Chet, AD, Randle, Zion, Markkanen, etc. etc.

You're probably the same guy who was obsessed with Trey Lyles as a starting PF when we had him.

Name one starting PF in the West that is worse than Barnes. Here I'll list them for you, just like I did when all of you were sucking off Trey fucking Lyles. I'll even add some bench players:

Aaron Gordon
Lauri Markkanen
Alperen Sengun
Chet Holmgren
Julius Randle/Naz Reid
Zion Williamson
Rui Hachimura
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard/John Collins
Keegan Murray
Anthony Davis/PJ Washington/Cooper Flagg
Royce O'Neal
Jaren Jackson Jr./Santi Aldama
Toumani Camara/Jerami Grant

He's not better than any of these which makes him the worst starting PF in the entire conference period.

This is… a bit disingenuous. Comparing Barnes to other team’s stars? Can you compare those team’s starting center with Wembanyama then?
Barnes should be compared to teams with a role player at PF, because not all teams are distributed with stars at the same positions. And while I’m sure you’ll find role players who are better than Barnes, it still isn’t as many as you’re describing in your post. At least then it’s an honest way of painting this picture for this point you’re making.