Player The Uncertainty Realm of the Improved Jumpshot of Jeremy Sochan

[PanameSpur]

That is quite a 180 from previous assessments you used to describe him, which is rather hilarious given that he did clearly regressed from previous years. He is absolutely lost on offence rather than having a lack of plans. His main strengths of defence and rebounding are pretty much gone. He just doesn’t work on the team at all now. Compared to what he was last year there is no doubt he got worse.

And saying he’s more athletic is just a pure head scratcher.

Your post proves what I've been saying from day one, you (and others) are incapable of nuance, you choose a camp and whoever is in the opposite is the worst possible human being smh

It's never ever been personal with Sochan nor have I denied him any qualities, I just highlighted why he doesn't have the skills we need or how hes a terrible fit for the bb the Spurs aim to play, especially with a profile as singular as Wemby who requires shooting, passing and high IQ around him. I recall taking the '14 Spurs as example.

I maintain that Sochan is the worst player I've ever seen having as much playing time in 30 years I've watched bb. It's been truly mind-boggling at times, especially when 80% of the fanbase was telling me how wrong I was and that Sochan is the core of the future and that I was blind blabla

I've waited to be wrong but it never happened and now 80% agree with my initial assement.

So no, there's no 180, there's just me hoping this kid find his way and being more optimistic than some in here who think Sochan has no future in the league.

He has A LOT to work on, but his age and a better fit with a team that has plenty of shooting and need to energy/cutting guy as well as the NBA's networking culture (I'm sure PATFO will say plenty of lovely things to others FO about him) are enough to be optimistic.

Edit/ I forgot the athletic part...

Saying he's more athletic than when he arrived 3 years ago doesn't mean he is an athletic player, just that he's more than he was bc he's been training for 3y. It's just common sense...

Now is he athletic enough? Hell no... Please let's not waste time on a point most agree

 

[The Truth #6]

So on one hand I look at the players where there had been a hue and cry, to varying degrees, for trading or moving:

Devin
Keldon
Fox
Castle
Sochan

The first four have shown enough for those trade demands/lamentations to subside noticeably.

So either Jeremy proves the exception and gets his shit together and continues the trend of us online fanatics being wrong (and full disclosure, I definitely was for trading Devin and Keldon immediately), or, you know, he doesn't.

This is tough. We all have been wrong here. Or maybe we were right at the time but had lost patience and now look silly while Keldon and Devin play a big part in our success.

Jeremy has regressed from last year. Or his role has been reduced and there also is no rational way to suggest he should get more minutes over more useful players.

I see him as the exception to the trend and not becoming what everyone hoped, mostly because, in contrast to the others, he hasn't shown any niche role he can stick to and thrive in.

Having said all that, I considered posting a YouTube video from the closing moments of Rocky 4 to emphasize that "if you can change, then I can change too." Unfortunately, Russia has regressed and so has Sochan, so no video. Also I don't know how to embed.

So in the end, I do think Jeremy will be on the team next year somehow, but making about $8 million a year.

Unless Jeremy wants to be moved, the Spurs won't divorce, just tell him to move to the guest bedroom.

 

[scott]

Great post, @The Truth #6 although I strongly dispute the notion that there has ever been any serious grumblings to trade Fox or Castle. Those were either just trolls, people throwing out ideas to land a bigger fish, or complete one-offs by rogue posters.

Devin especially I'm eating crow on. Not only is he performing well, but he's adapting to a new role... though I will say we have yet to see him for an extended period in his true new role with The Big 4 all healthy. Until then, it's kind of hard to say. He did well in his role with Fox out, and he's stepped up with Wemby and Castle out... but what does he really look like in that support role behind those 3 and Harper?

Keldon, on the other hand, is absolutely thriving.

 

[OK Computer]

I’m of the opinion that he will be Malaki Branhamed or Blake Wesleyed (kicked off the team) soon. He’s Luka Samanicing (showing poor effort with) his playing time out there right now. The body language is just Bryn Forbes (ass).

 

[ambchang]

Your post proves what I've been saying from day one, you (and others) are incapable of nuance, you choose a camp and whoever is in the opposite is the worst possible human being smh

It's never ever been personal with Sochan nor have I denied him any qualities, I just highlighted why he doesn't have the skills we need or how hes a terrible fit for the bb the Spurs aim to play, especially with a profile as singular as Wemby who requires shooting, passing and high IQ around him. I recall taking the '14 Spurs as example.

I maintain that Sochan is the worst player I've ever seen having as much playing time in 30 years I've watched bb. It's been truly mind-boggling at times, especially when 80% of the fanbase was telling me how wrong I was and that Sochan is the core of the future and that I was blind blabla

I've waited to be wrong but it never happened and now 80% agree with my initial assement.

So no, there's no 180, there's just me hoping this kid find his way and being more optimistic than some in here who think Sochan has no future in the league.

He has A LOT to work on, but his age and a better fit with a team that has plenty of shooting and need to energy/cutting guy as well as the NBA's networking culture (I'm sure PATFO will say plenty of lovely things to others FO about him) are enough to be optimistic.

Edit/ I forgot the athletic part...

Saying he's more athletic than when he arrived 3 years ago doesn't mean he is an athletic player, just that he's more than he was bc he's been training for 3y. It's just common sense...

Now is he athletic enough? Hell no... Please let's not waste time on a point most agree

This is definitely not what you’ve been harping on for a year. Yes, you kept talking about him not being athletic, low bball iq, etc… but you’ve also stated that he has no place in the league given how bad he is. Things like he couldn’t rebound or was a bad defender, which was demonstrably false before this year. Most importantly his unwillingness to pass to wemby, which was the thing I had the biggest issue with. He actually passed to wemby the most out of all players he passed to.

In terms of athleticism, he has been a decent athlete previous with good lateral moving speed, and this year he has clearly regressed. So saying he is more athletic than before is just a mystery.

 

[dn0774]

I wonder what the Spurs 'take it or leave it' extension offer was and if Jeremy is having second thoughts on declining it now. I'm guessing he and his representation just figured he'd have a solid season at the least and get more that way. Not looking good.

Now with a future project (Carter Bryant) siphoning minutes from Sochan, digging himself out and at least getting some playing time back could be tough. Carter is as raw as it gets but his effort level far exceeds Sochans; from the Spurs perspective, if neither player can give you much right now you might as well pump minutes into the younger, hungrier player.

 

[scott]

I wonder what the Spurs 'take it or leave it' extension offer was and if Jeremy is having second thoughts on declining it now. I'm guessing he and his representation just figured he'd have a solid season at the least and get more that way. Not looking good.

Now with a future project (Carter Bryant) siphoning minutes from Sochan, digging himself out and at least getting some playing time back could be tough. Carter is as raw as it gets but his effort level far exceeds Sochans; from the Spurs perspective, if neither player can give you much right now you might as well pump minutes into the younger, hungrier player.

Maybe there wasn't even a take it or leave it offer...

 

[ambchang]

Maybe there wasn't even a take it or leave it offer...

Was thinking that too which was why sochan looks sulky and checked out. He has to realize he’s not good enough to do that though.

 

[CGD]

Maybe there wasn't even a take it or leave it offer...

How do you value his next deal based on where we are now? Is 30/3 in play, maybe 2+1 with TO?

I really don’t know how to value him right now.

 

[spurraider21]

How do you value his next deal based on where we are now? Is 30/3 in play, maybe 2+1 with TO?

I really don’t know how to value him right now.

would have to be much lower than that given his current role and what is projected role would. now a quarter way thru the season, he has done nothing to warrant bringing him back

He is a negative on offense and his defense is decent but not good enough to justify the offense

So a bench guy to absorb regular season minutes as a defensive specialist albeit not really close to being an elite defender

 

[scott]

How do you value his next deal based on where we are now? Is 30/3 in play, maybe 2+1 with TO?

I really don’t know how to value him right now.

Based on where we are right now... he'll be lucky to get a vet minimum camp deal, IMO.

Lower value than when Lonnie Walker took the taxpayer MLE after we rescinded his QO. After that he became a vet min guy and now he's in Europe. And that's after he averaged 12ppg and won a playoff game for the Lakers.

That same taxpayer MLE is projected at $6.1MM next year.

 

[The Truth #6]

Great post, @The Truth #6 although I strongly dispute the notion that there has ever been any serious grumblings to trade Fox or Castle. Those were either just trolls, people throwing out ideas to land a bigger fish, or complete one-offs by rogue posters.

Devin especially I'm eating crow on. Not only is he performing well, but he's adapting to a new role... though I will say we have yet to see him for an extended period in his true new role with The Big 4 all healthy. Until then, it's kind of hard to say. He did well in his role with Fox out, and he's stepped up with Wemby and Castle out... but what does he really look like in that support role behind those 3 and Harper?

Keldon, on the other hand, is absolutely thriving.

I acknowledge some of those trade ideas were half baked and less serious than others, but I tried to somewhat acknowledge that by saying "to varying degrees".

Keldon has come full circle like in a great novel, returning to his (big bodied) home from where he began after a journey that saw him push himself in different directions where at times it all seemed lost, et cetera. In that sense he is a development success story. Or maybe the coaches just finally accepted him for who he is. Or maybe we finally got a point guard. Maybe a little bit of all three.

 

[PanameSpur]

This is definitely not what you’ve been harping on for a year. Yes, you kept talking about him not being athletic, low bball iq, etc… but you’ve also stated that he has no place in the league given how bad he is. Things like he couldn’t rebound or was a bad defender, which was demonstrably false before this year. Most importantly his unwillingness to pass to wemby, which was the thing I had the biggest issue with. He actually passed to wemby the most out of all players he passed to.

In terms of athleticism, he has been a decent athlete previous with good lateral moving speed, and this year he has clearly regressed. So saying he is more athletic than before is just a mystery.

It's as if everything was binary to you, either hater or fan etc

I did say all those things and I'll repeat them today, they're not incompatible with the optimism I can have that concerns the future by definition and not the present.

He cannot be used presently by any team in the league bc he's not reliable and is too much of a liability.

He's not athletic enough to play vs 4s and 5s doesn't mean he's not more athletic than he was 3 years ago! How hard is it to understand that?

His unwillingness to pass to Wemby doesn't mean he doesn't want to but just can't or doesn't see it. I gave the same comp with Tre Jones, a high IQ player who 100% could see the passes but rarely made them bc he's smart and knows his limitations and sees the risk of TO more than the success of the pass. Hence our need to get rid of him at that time bc we need high level inside passing players and he isn't.

Same with Vassell but diff reasons and circumstances, Devin has shown in Wemby''s rookie season's 2nd half that when he wants (or Pop forces him to do) he's a very capable passer and can have a great connection with Wemby. So when suddenly the connection disappear (since then basically) it's normal to wonder why Devin stopped and started again his Kobe like shot selections and selfish decisions...

Back to Sochan, that doesn't mean he can't evolve especially considering his age but he's not the right fit for TODAY'S Spurs, at best I see him taking 3-4 years of struggle, maybe becoming a journey man etc that will toughen him up and make him a reliable player he isn't today. Why should the Spurs pay the price of his development when he's no adapted and ruining the plays constantly? Even at a low salary he's not worth it bc places are limited and others are imo more deserving of playing time, like CB who's gonna need PT soon too.

I think you and others just put me (and others) in a box and stopped having any nuance. You probably missed all those "I hope I'm wrong", or "please shut my mouth" that I added to most of my critic posts bc it didn't fit the hater profile you put on me.

Same way some tried to make me a Wemby stan just bc of posts where I argued that he wasn't being treated the right way, conveniently ignoring the countless posts where I criticize him. When I'm one of his biggest critics today (I don't think he's an alpha nor should be THE guy our game is based around, he's not reliable enough to get that role... on offense).

It's all good, I don't take any of this shit personally, it kinda amuses me to see so many 180s tbh

 

[Raven_]

This is definitely not what you’ve been harping on for a year. Yes, you kept talking about him not being athletic, low bball iq, etc… but you’ve also stated that he has no place in the league given how bad he is. Things like he couldn’t rebound or was a bad defender, which was demonstrably false before this year. Most importantly his unwillingness to pass to wemby, which was the thing I had the biggest issue with. He actually passed to wemby the most out of all players he passed to.

In terms of athleticism, he has been a decent athlete previous with good lateral moving speed, and this year he has clearly regressed. So saying he is more athletic than before is just a mystery.

I thought his connection with wemby was the best out of all players, in that it actually works visibly better than you would expect. But something is different this year. Mostly mitch tbh

 

[CGD]

Based on where we are right now... he'll be lucky to get a vet minimum camp deal, IMO.

Lower value than when Lonnie Walker took the taxpayer MLE after we rescinded his QO. After that he became a vet min guy and now he's in Europe. And that's after he averaged 12ppg and won a playoff game for the Lakers.

That same taxpayer MLE is projected at $6.1MM next year.

Brutal. My initial reaction is that this seems low, but basically I think I’m basing that on the fact that he’s taller than 6’8.

I hope he turns it around for his sake. And if he does, seems like the type of player that will torture us on his next team, lol.

 

[ambchang]

It's as if everything was binary to you, either hater or fan etc

I did say all those things and I'll repeat them today, they're not incompatible with the optimism I can have that concerns the future by definition and not the present.

He cannot be used presently by any team in the league bc he's not reliable and is too much of a liability.

The amazing thing is that you are taking what people say about you, which is being binary, to say it's other people, and it really is a habit of you. It's really mind-boggling.

As of right now, I would say he is an end of bench type of player, but I wouldn't go so far to say he is not playable.

He's not athletic enough to play vs 4s and 5s doesn't mean he's not more athletic than he was 3 years ago! How hard is it to understand that?

I am not saying I don't understand your point being not athletic enough, I am saying he is less athletic today compared to a few years ago. His movements are less fluid, he cannot change speed as much, he can't move laterally as well. I agree he is not outstandingly athletic, but he is an athlete, enough to allow him to get rebounds and play perimeter defence, which are mostly athleticism and will.

His unwillingness to pass to Wemby doesn't mean he doesn't want to but just can't or doesn't see it. I gave the same comp with Tre Jones, a high IQ player who 100% could see the passes but rarely made them bc he's smart and knows his limitations and sees the risk of TO more than the success of the pass. Hence our need to get rid of him at that time bc we need high level inside passing players and he isn't.

Same with Vassell but diff reasons and circumstances, Devin has shown in Wemby''s rookie season's 2nd half that when he wants (or Pop forces him to do) he's a very capable passer and can have a great connection with Wemby. So when suddenly the connection disappear (since then basically) it's normal to wonder why Devin stopped and started again his Kobe like shot selections and selfish decisions...

Tre Jones is high IQ? You said he was unable to change once he made up his mind to do something, which to me is low IQ. You have also said he didn't belong to the league. I contended that he is a high end second string PG because he has a steady hand with limitations, even a borderline starter on a bad team.

And unwillingness means unwilling to, as in doesn't want to. If he can't, it is reluctance or inability. These are two very different things. Unwillingness has to do with intent.

As for Vassell, I have questioned the same about him going Kobe mode, so I am on the same page.

Back to Sochan, that doesn't mean he can't evolve especially considering his age but he's not the right fit for TODAY'S Spurs, at best I see him taking 3-4 years of struggle, maybe becoming a journey man etc that will toughen him up and make him a reliable player he isn't today. Why should the Spurs pay the price of his development when he's no adapted and ruining the plays constantly? Even at a low salary he's not worth it bc places are limited and others are imo more deserving of playing time, like CB who's gonna need PT soon too.

I think you and others just put me (and others) in a box and stopped having any nuance. You probably missed all those "I hope I'm wrong", or "please shut my mouth" that I added to most of my critic posts bc it didn't fit the hater profile you put on me.

Let's be honest, those I hope Im wrong things are a clear out. I didn't have a problem with Sochan having playing time previously as the Spurs really had no one else to play, they were a bad team with no direction, poorly coached.

Same way some tried to make me a Wemby stan just bc of posts where I argued that he wasn't being treated the right way, conveniently ignoring the countless posts where I criticize him. When I'm one of his biggest critics today (I don't think he's an alpha nor should be THE guy our game is based around, he's not reliable enough to get that role... on offense).

It's all good, I don't take any of this shit personally, it kinda amuses me to see so many 180s tbh

I absolutely do not recall much criticisms of Wemby until you were called out on it multiple times on it, and even now, Wemby had been quite disappointing in terms of decision making this year, after a great start of the first 5 games or so but I don't really hear much from you. I see Wemby more of a Robinson more than a Duncan, most definitely a generational talent, just doesn't know the game well to make the right decisions and take the easy way out. Robinson eventually found his calling as a running mate to Duncan, but Wemby can hopefully turn it around and learn how to take the reigns by making winning plays. Hope he will try to emulate his game after Jokic and Duncan (not necessarily playing in the post or being a banger, but in terms of seeing the big picture and knowing when to do what) than a Durant, who is more a career loser until he joined a 73-win team and took credit for someone else's work.

 

[scott]

You know... say what you will about Jeremy Sochan and the fact he has the worst ORTG on the entire team this season... but people overlook the fact the he also has the worst DRTG on the entire team this season. The guy just gets no respect!

 

[Raven_]

You know... say what you will about Jeremy Sochan and the fact he has the worst ORTG on the entire team this season... but people overlook the fact the he also has the worst DRTG on the entire team this season. The guy just gets no respect!

kind of happens when you face nobody in the time sochan was injured :lol

 

[KobesAchilles]

How would you describe Sochan's player profile? What are his strengths? What is his style? Is he a traditional power forward from the 1960s? Wtf even is he?

He’s a basketball player who has no idea how to play basketball. We have a lot of these players on our team. Guys who just have no idea how to play team basketball or how to play the game at all.

Personally I believe it’s an epidemic going on at the lower levels. And one and done pretty much killed player development for the star high school players. They don’t learn shit in college anymore. And they go into the NBA with bad habits and low IQ and they struggle.

I wish the Spurs going forward either draft foreign or they draft a multi year college player. We have no more room for projects on this team. Seriously part of my interview would be for them to Jon Gruden that thing on the whiteboard. Draw up a play. Dissect a defensive assignment. Tell me where you should rotate. Tell me what you are doing without the ball. I’m tired of waiting years for guys to learn how to play basic fundamental basketball and then never put it into practice bc of all the bad habits. Guys like Vassell and Sochan.

Oh and also no more players who can’t shoot. None

 

[spurraider21]

You know... say what you will about Jeremy Sochan and the fact he has the worst ORTG on the entire team this season... but people overlook the fact the he also has the worst DRTG on the entire team this season. The guy just gets no respect!

in fairness to him, he has only played in wemby games in 6 of his 13 games, and im not sure how many of those minutes were with/without vic.

and 2 of those games were just curry torching us

DRating is famously the carlos boozer stat

 

[scott]

He’s a basketball player who has no idea how to play basketball. We have a lot of these players on our team. Guys who just have no idea how to play team basketball or how to play the game at all.

Personally I believe it’s an epidemic going on at the lower levels. And one and done pretty much killed player development for the star high school players. They don’t learn shit in college anymore. And they go into the NBA with bad habits and low IQ and they struggle.

I wish the Spurs going forward either draft foreign or they draft a multi year college player. We have no more room for projects on this team. Seriously part of my interview would be for them to Jon Gruden that thing on the whiteboard. Draw up a play. Dissect a defensive assignment. Tell me where you should rotate. Tell me what you are doing without the ball. I’m tired of waiting years for guys to learn how to play basic fundamental basketball and then never put it into practice bc of all the bad habits. Guys like Vassell and Sochan.

Oh and also no more players who can’t shoot. None

I would be remiss to not point out:

Devin Vassell - multi-year college player
Steph Castle & Dylan Harper - one and done college players

I like your idea about putting an emphasis in the interview on bbiq and basketball fundamentals... but the hard and fast rule doesn't hold...

 

[LeBowen]

He’s a basketball player who has no idea how to play basketball. We have a lot of these players on our team. Guys who just have no idea how to play team basketball or how to play the game at all.

Personally I believe it’s an epidemic going on at the lower levels. And one and done pretty much killed player development for the star high school players. They don’t learn shit in college anymore. And they go into the NBA with bad habits and low IQ and they struggle.

I wish the Spurs going forward either draft foreign or they draft a multi year college player. We have no more room for projects on this team. Seriously part of my interview would be for them to Jon Gruden that thing on the whiteboard. Draw up a play. Dissect a defensive assignment. Tell me where you should rotate. Tell me what you are doing without the ball. I’m tired of waiting years for guys to learn how to play basic fundamental basketball and then never put it into practice bc of all the bad habits. Guys like Vassell and Sochan.

Oh and also no more players who can’t shoot. None

For more than a decade now it's been obvious that the only purpose of lower levels is to serve as a showcase for top prospects to shit on average kids.
And being a top prospect mostly equals to being more athletic than your peers, which is another issue.
Those kids are wasting time by playing against inadequate opposition while their low level coaches/agents/family members are patting them on the back and telling them they're the next big thing.

The biggest reason for Europe catching up so fast is that every talented European player starts practicing with pros from like 15 or 16 years old. Even if they don't play in professional leagues, that experience is invaluable.

I would be remiss to not point out:

Devin Vassell - multi-year college player
Steph Castle & Dylan Harper - one and done college players

I like your idea about putting an emphasis in the interview on bbiq and basketball fundamentals... but the hard and fast rule doesn't hold...

I'd say that the only thing that needs to be added to his post is that very top level prospects are excluded from this.
Castle looks like the best player in his class and Harper looks like a generational floor general right away.
We won't be getting any more of those in the draft.

We'll be able to choose from Sochan's and Bryant's that lack fundamental skills.
Even a smart kid like Bryant seems clueless out there because current development system is so bad.
And it's only going to get worse because of the extra money they can hand out these days.

It wouldn't surprise me if smart kids start moving to Europe at like 17/18 and staying there for 2 or 3 years before entering the draft.

 

[k....]

can you even get vet min on restricted free agency? i assume so team will throw money at him and we wont match, or the spurs will match . not like big money, but he could thrive in a lower stake team so hes worth non starter money

 

[LeBowen]

can you even get vet min on restricted free agency? i assume so team will throw money at him and we wont match, or the spurs will match . not like big money, but he could thrive in a lower stake team so hes worth non starter money

A player enters RFA when his team doesn't offer him a contract.
Then everyone else is available to offer him one.
If he accepts, his team can match it or let him go.
If he doesn't, Spurs can give him a qualifying offer. Cheap, one year deal.

 

[scott]

in fairness to him, he has only played in wemby games in 6 of his 13 games, and im not sure how many of those minutes were with/without vic.

and 2 of those games were just curry torching us

DRating is famously the carlos boozer stat

Sochan has played 210 minutes this year. 48 have been with Wemby.

Before Wemby went out, Sochan had played 87 minutes. Obviously none of the 123 since have been without Wemby.

In the 347 minutes Wemby played without Sochan, he posted a DRTG of 104.4.

In the 48 minutes they played together, they posted a DRTG of 130.4. So oddly enough, Sochan's minutes with Wemby actually made his cumulative DRTG worse (Sochan has a 116.1 DRTG without Wemby, and a 119.4 overall)