Player The blessed howl's moving Castle of Stephon Javonte

Right about what exactly? I'm kinda curious. I see you've recently delivered the "uncomfortable truth" that Reed Sheppard averages more steals and blocks than Castle as if that is something that should make us uncomfortable. Is there a wider angle lens view that I'm missing? Reed has great hands and surprising verticality and is a genuine playmaker on defense that few men his size are.

He's also a traffic cone.
He's a troll, don't bother.
Ever since Castle got drafted he keeps talking how terrible his defense is, it's just that most people in here either have him on their ignore list or don't bother engaging.
 
The stats say he’s one of our best playmakers next to Victor Wembanyama, yet the conclusion is that he should be less of a playmaker because he doesn’t perform as well without the franchise cornerstone. That makes no sense. These narratives never fail to disappoint.

Despite the complaints, I’m happy that Castle’s role will continue as it is, with no significant change to how involved he is in the offense. Luckily, the Spurs still believe in him and attribute much of their success to his playmaking, despite the narratives being pushed and the fans who fail to recognize his value as a playmaker.
I was just ribbing you, lol, and have no interest in bringing Castle down or whatever narrative you think I've got going.

That said, Scott made my point for me (that you apparently agree with as well?) that Castle may well be best played as a mainly secondary playmaker as opposed to a primary one, the historical main role of the - agreed, archaic - Point Guard. I fully appreciate Castle's playmaking and the Hydra setup has worked wonders this season, but I also simply believe that Harper looks much better in that primary role than Castle does, and that is not an indictment on Castle - everyone has their role on a successful team. I wouldn't also want Wemby to be the primary ball-handler, despite him being quite a good playmaker himself, as well.

Not sure why this is such a disagreeable opinion for you, or why you think whatever we talk about here would have any impact on what the Spurs do - we're obviously just internet randos shooting the shit, lol. In any case, we've got several years of Fox manning the role before any decision has to be made in this regard, so it's just hypotheticals anyway. Harper may well "bust" and flounder under the pressure of a starting role as a sophomore or third-year player, who knows...
 
I disagree with the positioning of this argument. I don't think anyone is suggestion that Castle should be less of a playmaker, just that he shouldn't be the primary ball handler and should do his playmaking as a wing. But YTD, his On-ball % is 32.6% compared to Fox at 30.8... the result is that Castle averaged 5.1 TOV/100 while Fox is at 3.5 TOV/100. The gap in on-ball % has tightened as of late with the Spurs playing Fox more on ball... and during that stretch, Castle has thrived, bouncing back from a rough patch in January.

I think we conflate playmaking with being primarily on-ball or being a "PG" (whatever that means these days). I continue to buy into the idea that Fox, Castle and Harper are just guards in the Spurs system. We don't have PG or SG... just G. Likewise, we don't have SF or PF, just Wing (and all our guys fit the same overall mold now that Sochan is gone - of course they each have their own strengths and weaknesses but I think they are all similar broad archetypes with some specific skewed traits).

Castle has been taken off ball as much in this Feb-Mar run, but it hasn't impacted his playmaking at all, in fact I'd argue its better than ever. Let's just keep doing that.
This was a perfect post BTW in terms of capturing exactly what the "argument" or "narrative" is about, btw :st-tu:

It's really no shade or negativity for Castle at all to recognize what he does best, and try to put him consistently in a position to succeed in that role. I've watched most games this season, and without any stats at hand, strongly remember his best drives/playmaking/moments coming off secondary actions as opposed to half-court sets that he starts. Fox has been invaluable in that role, and in time, I can't imagine Harper won't slide in there to replace him, while hopefully Fox grows to accept a lesser role (and pay) when his current contract is up.

We don't have to make an analysis of Castle's strengths as a player into a "Castle VS everyone" debate or anything, tbh. I've exceedingly enjoyed his play this season and he's been a primary driver for our success, I want him right there closing out games in the playoffs with Wemby & Co.
 
I was just ribbing you, lol, and have no interest in bringing Castle down or whatever narrative you think I've got going.

That said, Scott made my point for me (that you apparently agree with as well?) that Castle may well be best played as a mainly secondary playmaker as opposed to a primary one, the historical main role of the - agreed, archaic - Point Guard. I fully appreciate Castle's playmaking and the Hydra setup has worked wonders this season, but I also simply believe that Harper looks much better in that primary role than Castle does, and that is not an indictment on Castle - everyone has their role on a successful team. I wouldn't also want Wemby to be the primary ball-handler, despite him being quite a good playmaker himself, as well.

Not sure why this is such a disagreeable opinion for you, or why you think whatever we talk about here would have any impact on what the Spurs do - we're obviously just internet randos shooting the shit, lol. In any case, we've got several years of Fox manning the role before any decision has to be made in this regard, so it's just hypotheticals anyway. Harper may well "bust" and flounder under the pressure of a starting role as a sophomore or third-year player, who knows...
At this point it feels like we’re arguing semantics more than anything meaningful, so I’m fine moving on.

My only point is that labeling guys as “primary” and “secondary” playmakers is outdated. With this kind of guard trio, each of them functions as a primary depending on the possession. A shift in touches doesn’t redefine the role. Castle having fewer touches while Fox has more doesn’t suddenly make Castle less of a primary playmaker. When he has the ball, he’s still initiating, still directing, still functioning as the head of the snake.

The trio is a single unit, with a single purpose - I don’t believe there’s any future strategy where Harper is leading the team in a traditional way on his own just because he “sees things better”. My prediction is that when Harper and Castle are in their prime and Fox is 35, we’re going to be looking to fill a third PG “hole”.
 
At this point it feels like we’re arguing semantics more than anything meaningful, so I’m fine moving on.

My only point is that labeling guys as “primary” and “secondary” playmakers is outdated. With this kind of guard trio, each of them functions as a primary depending on the possession. A shift in touches doesn’t redefine the role. Castle having fewer touches while Fox has more doesn’t suddenly make Castle less of a primary playmaker. When he has the ball, he’s still initiating, still directing, still functioning as the head of the snake.

The trio is a single unit, with a single purpose - I don’t believe there’s any future strategy where Harper is leading the team in a traditional way on his own just because he “sees things better”. My prediction is that when Harper and Castle are in their prime and Fox is 35, we’re going to be looking to fill a third PG “hole”.
I can't promise I won't joke on the topic again... :st-wink:

And honestly, we'll see what happens in the playoffs. I'm all for egalitarian offensive sets.... Until crunch time in the 4th hits, and you need to setup half-court offensive sets to out-execute a set defense keying on your players. I hope we succeed with everyone eating, but I've also seen Castle drive a bit too much into the teeth of the defense and get stuffed to freely say he's just as good a primary initiator as Fox, for example, leaving Harper aside.

Having said that, he continues to play great, and had another great outing tonight. His chemistry with Wemby is even better than Harper's and they're a formidable duo. By-the-by, I'd love to get a player with more of a wing-sized body to replace Fox when the time comes, if possible... That way we could have Castle and Harper both be bigger-than-average for their position, while still maintaining the "Hydra Offense" stuff, instead of pushing Castle to the "nominal SF" starting spot and defensive assignments. But it's champagne problems to have, for sure!
 
The trio is a single unit, with a single purpose - I don’t believe there’s any future strategy where Harper is leading the team in a traditional way on his own just because he “sees things better”. My prediction is that when Harper and Castle are in their prime and Fox is 35, we’re going to be looking to fill a third PG “hole”.

I got news for you, Fox more than likely isn't making it past 30 on this team.
 
My point is that Castle is an excellent guard defender and doesn't play big enough to be a forward defender. Also that he is absolutely a point guard. The fact that he doesn't keep up with atrocious players such as reed when it comes to stonks, simply shows that he is being tasked with a job that doesn't fit him. I was always on the draft Castle over Reed train.
 
I can't promise I won't joke on the topic again... :st-wink:

And honestly, we'll see what happens in the playoffs. I'm all for egalitarian offensive sets.... Until crunch time in the 4th hits, and you need to setup half-court offensive sets to out-execute a set defense keying on your players. I hope we succeed with everyone eating, but I've also seen Castle drive a bit too much into the teeth of the defense and get stuffed to freely say he's just as good a primary initiator as Fox, for example, leaving Harper aside.

Having said that, he continues to play great, and had another great outing tonight. His chemistry with Wemby is even better than Harper's and they're a formidable duo. By-the-by, I'd love to get a player with more of a wing-sized body to replace Fox when the time comes, if possible... That way we could have Castle and Harper both be bigger-than-average for their position, while still maintaining the "Hydra Offense" stuff, instead of pushing Castle to the "nominal SF" starting spot and defensive assignments. But it's champagne problems to have, for sure!
I know we’re kind of just rehashing the same point at this stage, but I wanted to add a bit more detail to what I think the Spurs are actually doing.

I think him driving into the teeth of the defense isn’t really a flaw, it’s kind of the point of what they’re doing. That pressure matters. It forces rotations, collapses the paint, and makes the defense react even if the possession doesn’t end cleanly.

Out of the three, that’s his lane. Fox controls pace and space, Harper keeps things flowing, and Castle brings the physical pressure. He’s the one consistently putting the defense in uncomfortable spots and getting them into foul trouble.

If he stops doing that, defenses can just stay home, keep their rim protector planted, and not really adjust. That takes away one of the things that keeps the offense unpredictable.

So yeah, some of those drives look rough in the moment, but that’s part of the tradeoff. The value isn’t just whether he scores, it’s what it forces the defense to do over time.

I also don’t really know if having all three on the court at the same time long-term, or replacing Fox with another version of that same mold (which I doubt will happen), should even be the goal. What they’ve actually stumbled into is a winning setup: elite playmaking for all 48 minutes. It’s not about all three sharing the floor, it’s that they function as one point guard unit across the game, applying different types of pressure depending on who has the ball while one or two sit.

That’s the part that keeps getting missed. It feels like people are trying to force it back into an old school setup with defined roles, when the whole advantage is that the trio gives you three primary playmakers, different looks, and constant pressure all game. That strategy is what has us at 56 wins (and counting) in their first year together.
 
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Obviously the Spurs would want to have the three headed monster long term, it's just not practical.

Harper is too good to settle for low 20s minutes while not starting or closing and once Castle and him get their extensions, it makes no sense to tie up such a significant amount of cap space in three lead guards.
 
Obviously the Spurs would want to have the three headed monster long term, it's just not practical.

Harper is too good to settle for low 20s minutes while not starting or closing and once Castle and him get their extensions, it makes no sense to tie up such a significant amount of cap space in three lead guards.
You don’t have 3 PGs, you have three very versatile players who can legit play 1-3 in the traditional way of thinking. Vassell goes to the bench.
 
You don’t have 3 PGs, you have three very versatile players who can legit play 1-3 in the traditional way of thinking. Vassell goes to the bench.

Not enough shooting to work, let alone maximize offensively and would be too limiting to all three to have to split on ball duties even more.
 
Castle and Harper can share PG responsibilities, nobody needs to be the SG/SF. It’s just positionless basketball, which is what this team is becoming more and more.
That's all fine and dandy. As long as they don't take Castle out of the starting lineup for Harper, like many in here were calling for unnecessarily in the beginning of the season.
 
Not enough shooting to work, let alone maximize offensively and would be too limiting to all three to have to split on ball duties even more.
You haven’t been keeping up with current events…
 
You haven’t been keeping up with current events…

High percentage, low volume, mostly wide open spot up 3s over a few month sample size does not a floor spacer make.

It's no coincidence that the Spurs worst stretch of the season came with Vassell injured or that the starting lineup went from good to great when Champagnie replaced Barnes; increasing the 3-point volume and versatility.
 
High percentage, low volume, mostly wide open spot up 3s over a few month sample size does not a floor spacer make.

It's no coincidence that the Spurs worst stretch of the season came with Vassell injured or that the starting lineup went from good to great when Champagnie replaced Barnes; increasing the 3-point volume and versatility.
The Spurs are about to set the NBA record for most taken and made corner 3s. This drive and kick offense we run has no problem generating open looks. Easy open looks. Catch and shoot looks. The looks they’re getting now, they will continue to get. All three of them can get to the restricted area with little trouble, continually generating open looks on the perimeter for the other two.
 
That’s as good as a thumbs up, coming from the forum loon.
if it helps you sleep at night... but no, just like the french vanilla proposition (but not quite as badly), it is a losing one. Castle isn't a wing and never will be, Harper could be sga but what a waste to develop him like that and i don't know what kind of delusions are people having about fox defending..
 
The Spurs are about to set the NBA record for most taken and made corner 3s. This drive and kick offense we run has no problem generating open looks. Easy open looks. Catch and shoot looks. The looks they’re getting now, they will continue to get. All three of them can get to the restricted area with little trouble, continually generating open looks on the perimeter for the other two.
Vassell and Champagnie provide a skillset of C&S and shooting off screens and movement that is vital for the overall offensive structure of the team. If you replace one of them for another ball handling guard that can only shoot open catch and shoot 3's, the system might get compromised.
 
The Spurs are about to set the NBA record for most taken and made corner 3s. This drive and kick offense we run has no problem generating open looks. Easy open looks. Catch and shoot looks. The looks they’re getting now, they will continue to get. All three of them can get to the restricted area with little trouble, continually generating open looks on the perimeter for the other two.
Interesting stat.

They're also doing well cutting on the baseline on drives. So they're getting corner threes and also sliding guys when there's overhelp. This, plus working out moving a guard to the free throw line high post are great wrinkles.
 
The Spurs are about to set the NBA record for most taken and made corner 3s. This drive and kick offense we run has no problem generating open looks. Easy open looks. Catch and shoot looks. The looks they’re getting now, they will continue to get. All three of them can get to the restricted area with little trouble, continually generating open looks on the perimeter for the other two.
Think we are all on the lookout for how it will perform in post season. If we knew that it would still work, i'd be comfortable in saying we're already 3-peating
 
Interesting stat.

They're also doing well cutting on the baseline on drives. So they're getting corner threes and also sliding guys when there's overhelp. This, plus working out moving a guard to the free throw line high post are great wrinkles.
It's interesting that Champagnie is great from the left corner and below average from the right corner, while Vassell is the opposite. That's better than if there were two of Barnes, who is a bit better than average from both corners.
 
The Spurs are about to set the NBA record for most taken and made corner 3s. This drive and kick offense we run has no problem generating open looks. Easy open looks. Catch and shoot looks. The looks they’re getting now, they will continue to get. All three of them can get to the restricted area with little trouble, continually generating open looks on the perimeter for the other two.

Generating doesn't equal spacing, as DAF86 explained.

Teams don't defend the three lead guards from 3 and none are high volume, pull up or off movement threats.
 
Generating doesn't equal spacing, as DAF86 explained.

Teams don't defend the three lead guards from 3 and none are high volume, pull up or off movement threats.
Fine. Don't defend them. They've shown they can can make those.
 
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