Analysis Spurs rotations and depth chart

[DTW]

IMO, this limits Harper’s effectiveness. He has less time with the ball in his hands this way. I think they should stagger those minutes until Fox leaves. You’re basically taking away the team advantage that the Spurs would otherwise have with 48 minutes of deadly PG play.

There has to be a fair bit of overlap to get both Fox and Harper the minutes they deserve and to keep them content.

Easier to control it if Harper comes off the bench obviously, but either way it will happen.

 

[OK Computer]

There has to be a fair bit of overlap to get both Fox and Harper the minutes they deserve and to keep them content.

Easier to control it if Harper comes off the bench obviously, but either way it will happen.

Oh I mean, yeah I agree, if there’s overlap while also making sure one of them is on the floor at all times, cool.

 

[STAT88]

I said this during the off season, it wouldn’t take long for Harper to show he’s a level above Castle as a prospect/player. That’s not a knock on Castle, thats a testament to how good Harper is and how lucky the Spurs got.

Spurs should roll with Fox and Castle as backcourt starters for now and have Harper come off the bench. But won’t be long before Harper is so good he has to start, and that means either moving Castle to the bench or to the 3 spot which can work but might also cause some issues with spacing and being a bit undersized when guarding some 3’s in the league (Luka, J-Dub, Durant, Butler, Cam Johnson, Kawhi).

 

[BacktoBasics]

IMO, this limits Harper’s effectiveness. He has less time with the ball in his hands this way. I think they should stagger those minutes until Fox leaves. You’re basically taking away the team advantage that the Spurs would otherwise have with 48 minutes of deadly PG play.

Yeah, Harper really showed the benefits of his on ball play. Too early but his play off the bench is arguably 6th man of year talk if he keeps it up. Moving Vassell to the bench when Fox returns could work well for that backcourt.

 

[DAF86]

Who gets benched once Fox gets back? I would bench Barnes, but Mitch will probably bench Champagnie.

Who gets out of the rotation with Sochan and Olynyk coming back too? Tough decisions coming.

I would go:

Fox /Harper
Castle / Keldon
Vassell /
Champ /
Wemby / Kornet

The two bench forward spots divided among Sochan, Barnes and Olynyk depending on who performs better.

 

[MacNeacail]

I still think Fox / Castle / Harper all need to split the minutes at PG/SG (32 minutes each). Keep 2 on the floor at all times. I don't know what that does to Vassell because he and Keldon are both playing better than I expected so far (that's a low bar)

 

[bozhemoi]

I still think Fox / Castle / Harper all need to split the minutes at PG/SG (32 minutes each). Keep 2 on the floor at all times. I don't know what that does to Vassell because he and Keldon are both playing better than I expected so far (that's a low bar)

My guess is that it'll be Fox-Castle-Vassell-Barnes-Wembanyama when Fox comes back. They'll adjust if there's not enough rebounding or interior defense.

 

[bozhemoi]

Looking forward to having both Kornet and Olynyk back.

 

[timtonymanu]

If only Vassell was a couple inches taller. Truthfully, you bench Barnes but the Spurs would be too small. As good as Harper is and should be starting, I think they keep him on the bench to not mess up the flow since bringing back Fox will lead to more adjustments. Best chance for Sochan to prove his worth since Barnes isn't reliable all the time and the starting 4 spot is there for the taking.

Fox/Castle/Vassell/Barnes/Wemby
Harper/Champ/Keldon/Sochan/Luke

Won't be surprised if we ever have a closing lineup of Fox/Harper/Castle/Vassell/Wemby depending on the matchup.

 

[spurraider21]

i know theres been a lot of debate/discussion over how we will find minutes for everyone and how they'll be distributed when fully healty. it already feels like Harper is already barely playing enough minutes at 26, and then minutes have to be cut from somewhere for Fox. presumably they'll make way for some Sochan/Olynyk minutes. does Waters sneak in anywhere? etc

but maybe the plan will simply be that nobody other than Wemby plays very high minutes, with the idea that by limiting minutes, even for the presumed starter types like Fox/Vassell.. we are able to maintain the defensive intensity throughout the game. Its often talked about how taxing full time two-way minutes are. It's why a lot of vets "save their energy" on defense.

but if we tell Fox, hey, we want you to get up in people's faces, embrace the Swipa persona, on top of being an offensive engine, maybe thats best done playing 28-30mpg as opposed to the 34-36 minutes you've been accustomed to. same with Castle. maybe tone his minutes down from 30 to 25 and tell him that with Fox back, with Harper around, we'd rather you be a full time PITA on defense, and playing less minutes will help you do that without sacrificing your physicality on offense. same with Dev, who is currently playing 34mpg

 

[ginobilized]

i know theres been a lot of debate/discussion over how we will find minutes for everyone and how they'll be distributed when fully healty. it already feels like Harper is already barely playing enough minutes at 26, and then minutes have to be cut from somewhere for Fox. presumably they'll make way for some Sochan/Olynyk minutes. does Waters sneak in anywhere? etc

but maybe the plan will simply be that nobody other than Wemby plays very high minutes, with the idea that by limiting minutes, even for the presumed starter types like Fox/Vassell.. we are able to maintain the defensive intensity throughout the game. Its often talked about how taxing full time two-way minutes are. It's why a lot of vets "save their energy" on defense.

but if we tell Fox, hey, we want you to get up in people's faces, embrace the Swipa persona, on top of being an offensive engine, maybe thats best done playing 28-30mpg as opposed to the 34-36 minutes you've been accustomed to. same with Castle. maybe tone his minutes down from 30 to 25 and tell him that with Fox back, with Harper around, we'd rather you be a full time PITA on defense, and playing less minutes will help you do that without sacrificing your physicality on offense. same with Dev, who is currently playing 34mpg

That’s the approach I see us taking with this roster. The Thunder and Pacers use this effectively, obviously. Waters might get some useful spot minutes as a decent defender and great shooter. We’ll see how far Barnes, Sochan and Olynyk can take us this season. The roster is so much better than last season, but, it’s better than I first realized in the offseason. Might be a 10-11 man rotation.

 

[scott]

Who gets benched once Fox gets back? I would bench Barnes, but Mitch will probably bench Champagnie.

Who gets out of the rotation with Sochan and Olynyk coming back too? Tough decisions coming.

I would go:

Fox /Harper
Castle / Keldon
Vassell /
Champ /
Wemby / Kornet

The two bench forward spots divided among Sochan, Barnes and Olynyk depending on who performs better.

Feels to me that it's more like:

Guard: Fox/Harper/Castle (each can play 30+ mpg)
F: Vassell/Champ/Barnes/Keldon/Sochan
C: Wemby/Korndog

Vassell and Champ are capable of some SG minutes... so maybe it's more like this:

PG: Fox 32 / Harper 16
SG: Castle 28 / Harper 12 / Devin 6 / Champ 2
SF: Vassell 22 / Champ 18 / Keldon 8
PF: Barnes 20 / Keldon 14 / Sochan 14
C: Wemby 32 / Kornet 16

Totals:

Fox - 32
Harper - 28
Castle - 28
Devin - 28
Champ 20
Barnes - 20
Keldon - 22
Sochan - 14
Wemby - 32
Kornet - 16

Of course... this isn't really leaving room for Wemby/Kornet minutes (which we like) or Lunch Lady minutes (which I think we'll need.

This would be a lot easier if a certain player was just removed from the equation all together, tbh

 

[Guru of Nothing]

Not enough time to add a lot of thought to this yet, but these roster problems we have might be a blessing, if the trend of teams applying fullcourt defensive pressure continues.

NBA’s early trend: 94 feet of pressure; plus Grizzlies’ super-efficient rookie and more

The NBA is a copycat league, and the full-court pressure trend is the tactic to crib from other staffs. Plus, phantom shots, real blocks.

www.nytimes.com

The downside for teams that want to apply fullcourt pressure is that it needs depth (as in horses) to be sustainable, and it looks like we can go 11 deep with ease (when healthy, arrgh).

The downside to teams on the receiving end of the pressure is that it can wear down a primary ball handler (and I belive the linked article talks about this in the Portland/Atlanta game last week), but we've got Fox and Harper, and Castle too. ... And PG Sochan. We're golden.

 

[Quentin_Compson]

Feels to me that it's more like:

Guard: Fox/Harper/Castle (each can play 30+ mpg)
F: Vassell/Champ/Barnes/Keldon/Sochan
C: Wemby/Korndog

Vassell and Champ are capable of some SG minutes... so maybe it's more like this:

PG: Fox 32 / Harper 16
SG: Castle 28 / Harper 12 / Devin 6 / Champ 2
SF: Vassell 22 / Champ 18 / Keldon 8
PF: Barnes 20 / Keldon 14 / Sochan 14
C: Wemby 32 / Kornet 16

Totals:

Fox - 32
Harper - 28
Castle - 28
Devin - 28
Champ 20
Barnes - 20
Keldon - 22
Sochan - 14
Wemby - 32
Kornet - 16

Of course... this isn't really leaving room for Wemby/Kornet minutes (which we like) or Lunch Lady minutes (which I think we'll need.

This would be a lot easier if a certain player was just removed from the equation all together, tbh

Got it, you want Wemby gone ...

On a more serious note, my guess is that Olynyk will only be a situational player and will get a lot of DNPs. Sochan will get playing time, if only because the Spurs will have to figure out what to do with him (or not) going forward.

 

[OK Computer]

Sochan’s hope of being a long term Spur hinges on doing the same thing Keldon is doing right now on offense and rebounding. They’re somewhat similar players in that they’re not afraid to bang down low, but obviously Sochan has to catch up on the 3 pt shooting. If he has that, having two players that can hustle as much as these two would give the Spurs the luxury of having two very good role players. If he’d agree on a similar contract as Keldon too, that would be great.

 

[brazil]

Feels to me that it's more like:

Guard: Fox/Harper/Castle (each can play 30+ mpg)
F: Vassell/Champ/Barnes/Keldon/Sochan
C: Wemby/Korndog

Vassell and Champ are capable of some SG minutes... so maybe it's more like this:

PG: Fox 32 / Harper 16
SG: Castle 28 / Harper 12 / Devin 6 / Champ 2
SF: Vassell 22 / Champ 18 / Keldon 8
PF: Barnes 20 / Keldon 14 / Sochan 14
C: Wemby 32 / Kornet 16

Totals:

Fox - 32
Harper - 28
Castle - 28
Devin - 28
Champ 20
Barnes - 20
Keldon - 22
Sochan - 14
Wemby - 32
Kornet - 16

Of course... this isn't really leaving room for Wemby/Kornet minutes (which we like) or Lunch Lady minutes (which I think we'll need.

This would be a lot easier if a certain player was just removed from the equation all together, tbh

This is quite reasonable but I don't see Sochan being ok with 14 mn. Again you cannot cut too many minutes from our floor spacers, if only Sochan could have a half decent 3 ball.

 

[Shmurs]

Sochan’s hope of being a long term Spur hinges on doing the same thing Keldon is doing right now on offense and rebounding. They’re somewhat similar players in that they’re not afraid to bang down low, but obviously Sochan has to catch up on the 3 pt shooting. If he has that, having two players that can hustle as much as these two would give the Spurs the luxury of having two very good role players. If he’d agree on a similar contract as Keldon too, that would be great.

We just held a very high scoring team to a very low score with castle and Harper becoming revelations on the perimeter on D. And we already have a Keldon, and there’s really not room for 2 of them. And we’re 5-0 with our main limitation being setting up offense when pressed.

Sochan is so completely unnecessary to anything we have going on.

 

[brazil]

Dat lack of shooters around Victor is already biting our ass. Spurs have been able to work around with Vassell shooting a lot of 3s and making them at decent clip but 41 3s at 24% is not gonna cut it. Even with so many players attacking the basket, we will live and die by the 3

 

[LeBowen]

Close game against a competent team and Mitch has reduced it to an 8.5 man rotation.
Those 4 minutes Waters got could've easily gone to Champ, they play the same role.
I can't see the rotation changing much while Harper is out.
It also looks like Mitch doesn't rate Jeremy, but running an 8 man rotation so early in the regular season would be too much.
I guess 10 minutes Sochan/Waters got will probably be Mitch's token minutes for fringe rotation players to show they can be a spark plug on any given night.

One of Castle/Fox is always on the floor in the point guard role and they obviously start together.
One of Wemby/Kornet is always on the floor as a rim protector and they play some minutes together.
Vassell/Barnes/Keldon/Champ as off the ball shooters/cutters with Vassell getting some ballhandling duties when one point guard is sitting.

Our playmaker rotation will be arguably the best in the league when Harper is back, no need to do anything on that front.
Rim protector situation is also great when both are playing. It's just that we're fucked when one sits. Hopefully Olynyk is more useful than Biyombo as a player, because he's just as bad of a rim protector at this stage.

It's obvious our wing rotation is the weak link. I'm not saying any of them should get traded mid-season, but it would be nice if we could upgrade Sochan/Olynyk into a legit wing. Too bad there don't seem to be any on the market.

 

[OK Computer]

Close game against a competent team and Mitch has reduced it to an 8.5 man rotation.
Those 4 minutes Waters got could've easily gone to Champ, they play the same role.
I can't see the rotation changing much while Harper is out.
It also looks like Mitch doesn't rate Jeremy, but running an 8 man rotation so early in the regular season would be too much.
I guess 10 minutes Sochan/Waters got will probably be Mitch's token minutes for fringe rotation players to show they can be a spark plug on any given night.

One of Castle/Fox is always on the floor in the point guard role and they obviously start together.
One of Wemby/Kornet is always on the floor as a rim protector and they play some minutes together.
Vassell/Barnes/Keldon/Champ as off the ball shooters/cutters with Vassell getting some ballhandling duties when one point guard is sitting.

Our playmaker rotation will be arguably the best in the league when Harper is back, no need to do anything on that front.
Rim protector situation is also great when both are playing. It's just that we're fucked when one sits. Hopefully Olynyk is more useful than Biyombo as a player, because he's just as bad of a rim protector at this stage.

It's obvious our wing rotation is the weak link. I'm not saying any of them should get traded mid-season, but it would be nice if we could upgrade Sochan/Olynyk into a legit wing. Too bad there don't seem to be any on the market.

If you’re using Sochan/Olynyk to get a wing, whose minutes do you take from the Vassell/ Champ/ Keldon/ Barnes group?

I think Keldon and Barnes are in a unique group from Vassell and Champ because these games have shown Vassell and Champ can’t play the PF position whereas Keldon and Barnes can play up or down.

You were right to call out Vassell playing some spot PG minutes, that gives him more utility and a role to think about when crafting the roster.

So we have right now these archetypes being taken up by those four:

1. A wing that can play spot PG minutes but can’t slide to the 4 - Vassell
2. A strict wing that can’t slide to the 4 and can’t be a ball handler - Champ
3. A forward that can score and defend 3’s and 4’s, provide energy, and/ or rebound - Barnes/ Keldon

To me, it’s pointless to use Sochan/Olynyk to trade for an upgrade to replace one or two of those players, unless you believe that they should fight for those minutes and prove they deserve it over another. You might as well trade the weakest link(s) from that group in order to get your upgrade, which I think are Vassell and Champ (and include Sochan/Olynyk if needed). This way, you have 40 minutes freed up for that upgrade to come in and take.

Trading those players also makes it easy to find guaranteed minutes for Harper.

 

[LeBowen]

To me, it’s pointless to use Sochan/Olynyk to trade for an upgrade to replace one or two of those players, unless you believe that they should fight for those minutes and prove they deserve it over another.

I should've maybe worded it better.
When I said upgrade, I meant another potential rotation player that fits Mitch's ideas. We're not getting a starter for those two and I'm not using FRPs just yet.
While both Keldon and Barnes can play at PF, we'd like to get a Sochan-sized wing that can shoot and actually knows how to play basketball.

Sochan obviously doesn't fit Mitch's gameplan because he can't shoot and Olynyk doesn't fit because he's too slow and can't protect the rim.
If we could get a Jaylin Williams or a Dean Wade for thos two, it would probably be a move worth making.

As for Harper, he's surely taking some of Devin's minutes when he's back. I doubt he'll play more than 20 to 25 minutes this season because you know how load management goes with the Spurs after a player returns from injury.
And I don't expect him to be back before 2026.

 

[OK Computer]

I should've maybe worded it better.
When I said upgrade, I meant another potential rotation player that fits Mitch's ideas. We're not getting a starter for those two and I'm not using FRPs just yet.
While both Keldon and Barnes can play at PF, we'd like to get a Sochan-sized wing that can shoot and actually knows how to play basketball.

Sochan obviously doesn't fit Mitch's gameplan because he can't shoot and Olynyk doesn't fit because he's too slow and can't protect the rim.
If we could get a Jaylin Williams or a Dean Wade for thos two, it would probably be a move worth making.

As for Harper, he's surely taking some of Devin's minutes when he's back. I doubt he'll play more than 20 to 25 minutes this season because you know how load management goes with the Spurs after a player returns from injury.
And I don't expect him to be back before 2026.

My point is what use is a “potential rotation player” if they won’t eventually supplant either Keldon or Barnes in the rotation. I think it’s making a move for the sake of making a move. Otherwise, all you’re trying to improve is the 8 minutes that Sochan sometimes takes. This is a marginal improvement at best. If you think you’re trying to upgrade from Keldon or Barnes eventually, you might as well include them in the trade than do one where you trade a lesser asset for a lesser return.

 

[LeBowen]

I think it’s making a move for the sake of making a move.

And I think those moves should be made if we know what we have right now isn't good enough.
Each season players that were discarded by their previous teams have impact somewhere else.
If a trade costs us nothing, why not make the move? Even if it doesn't improve us, as long as the incoming player doesn't have a longer contract than the outgoing ones, we haven't lost anything.

Otherwise, all you’re trying to improve is the 8 minutes that Sochan sometimes takes. This is a marginal improvement at best.

If those 8 minutes are productive, they become 15 if some other players aren't performing to the expected level.

Bowen and Green are among the best 3-D role players in league, not just Spurs history and we got them both as discarded players with no real future in the league.
Diaw was waived by the Hornets before we got him and was on a clear downward trajectory.
Mills went to China after the lockout.

If (I'm making an assumption based on the current rotations) Mitch doesn't see Jeremy and Olynyk as relevant pieces going forward, there's no downside in taking a shot on another fringe rotation player or two assuming we're not taking on extra contract years.
(I know there aren't many suitable candidates out there, just trying to explain my logic.)

 

[rascal]

You can't have Harper coming off the bench for long. He's not going to like it because he's too good for a bench player role.

The Harper injury bought the Spurs some time to figure out what they will do with the starting lineup when Harper gets back.

 

[Splits]

You can't have Harper coming off the bench for long. He's not going to like it because he's too good for a bench player role.

The Harper injury bought the Spurs some time to figure out what they will do with the starting lineup when Harper gets back.

New site, same ole vanilla Rascal takes