Player Sochan's Extension Watch

[spurraider21]

What is meant by "Sochan caliber"? This dude can't shoot can't defend can't pass he can't do anything but get tattoos in his armpits and wreck his car.

sochan is criticized a ton on this board but “can’t defend” is a weird one. At least when it comes to his man to man defense, he’s quite good

 

[gilmor2002]

What is meant by "Sochan caliber"? This dude can't shoot can't defend can't pass he can't do anything but get tattoos in his armpits and wreck his car.

Sochan definitely can defend. He can't shoot. that's obvious..

In contrast, I have seen Carter play in the Summer League.. He shoots worse than Sochan. His defence is good but excessive. To play in 82 games yeat on year takes a lot of acclimitisation and getting used to the NBA rhythm; I am not arguing for Sochan.. but Carter is definitely NOT ready.

 

[brazil]

Imo the Spurs are trying to have their cake and eat it to when it comes to the playoffs. They are making win now moves (like trading for Fox and getting Barnes) while not admitting that they messed up with their picks of Sochan and Vassell and KJ. So the Spurs can go into the year wanting to make the playoffs all they want.

My projection on what the reality of the year will look like is that we don’t make the playoffs due mainly to playing 3 net negative players. And I’m not talking stats. Just more stupidity and lack of attention to detail and wrong mindset when it comes to winning. These 3 players are dead weight and will drag the team down. And imo when this season is looked back in retrospect, everyone here is going to be saying how obvious it was that we didn’t make the playoffs.

To each on its own, as I said previously with that roster a reasonable ambition is play in, less than that would be a disappointment even with what you call 3 dead weight. If used cleverly the 3 have value in a supporting role. A very above expectation season would be a direct spot to POs.

 

[brazil]

Sochan definitely can defend. He can't shoot. that's obvious..

In contrast, I have seen Carter play in the Summer League.. He shoots worse than Sochan. His defence is good but excessive. To play in 82 games yeat on year takes a lot of acclimitisation and getting used to the NBA rhythm; I am not arguing for Sochan.. but Carter is definitely NOT ready.

Thank you.

If one considers Sochan defense overrated same can be said about Carter. He has the tools but one he will have to learn get out of fool trouble and two he has to learn channel his energy... running around with no purpose is not good defense. On shooting I reserve my judgement, I hear the "he shot badly in summer league but was fine in college" and "his shooting form is ok and already better than Sochan" but let's say I'm not convinced. He is not NBA ready for sure.

 

[poopbox]

Sochan definitely can defend. He can't shoot. that's obvious..

In contrast, I have seen Carter play in the Summer League.. He shoots worse than Sochan. His defence is good but excessive. To play in 82 games yeat on year takes a lot of acclimitisation and getting used to the NBA rhythm; I am not arguing for Sochan.. but Carter is definitely NOT ready.

How can you say he can "definitely defend" when every non victor defensive line up Sochan has ever played in has been terrible? I don't think I have ever found even a league average "sochan without wemby" defensive lineup since he's been here. The only things that point to Sochan being a good defender are exceptionally convoluted advanced stats that mostly don't make any logical sense. Like his "isolation defense" numbers but if him, Devin, and Victor all put their hand up to challenge a shot only one of them can get the "isolation defense" metric for it so out of those 3 why would it be Sochan?

 

[Shmurs]

To each on its own, as I said previously with that roster a reasonable ambition is play in, less than that would be a disappointment even with what you call 3 dead weight. If used cleverly the 3 have value in a supporting role. A very above expectation season would be a direct spot to POs.

I don’t understand this argument. Keldon, for example. We’re seeing how much better players like Kuminga and Grimes are struggling to be accepted by their own teams and the macro market. And they’re much more useful than him, with similar profiles.

Microwave scorers who aren’t well rounded and can’t exist in a system don’t have a place in winning rotations. If you squint your eyes to try to place them in the lineup, you already lost.

Devin isn’t as bad as Keldon, but the same principle applies. If someone isn’t good then they can go play somewhere else, you know?

And Jeremy just isn’t an archetype that works on any playoff team.

 

[brazil]

I don’t understand this argument. Keldon, for example. We’re seeing how much better players like Kuminga and Grimes are struggling to be accepted by their own teams and the macro market. And they’re much more useful than him, with similar profiles.

Microwave scorers who aren’t well rounded and can’t exist in a system don’t have a place in winning rotations. If you squint your eyes to try to place them in the lineup, you already lost.

Devin isn’t as bad as Keldon, but the same principle applies. If someone isn’t good then they can go play somewhere else, you know?

And Jeremy just isn’t an archetype that works on any playoff team.

I'm the one not following you... I'd trade Sochan, Keldone and Vassell in a heartbeat but they are in the roster. Even with their limitations this team ceiling is PO through play in. I just don't believe Carter is a short term solution for the team to reduce minutes of those 3. That's my point, I'm not saying the 3 muskateers are not flawed or are not hurting the team. If we had 3 better dudes to replace them, we would be contender

 

[samurai]

How can you say he can "definitely defend" when every non victor defensive line up Sochan has ever played in has been terrible? I don't think I have ever found even a league average "sochan without wemby" defensive lineup since he's been here. The only things that point to Sochan being a good defender are exceptionally convoluted advanced stats that mostly don't make any logical sense. Like his "isolation defense" numbers but if him, Devin, and Victor all put their hand up to challenge a shot only one of them can get the "isolation defense" metric for it so out of those 3 why would it be Sochan?

He's a pretty good on-ball defender but he plays shitty team defense- he has low awareness, slow anticipation, and shitty positioning/rotations. And he doesn't have enough quickness or strength to make up for his other shortcomings. Also he's too busy trying to instigate and be a twat to stay engaged. I am hopeful that having backup bigs will help his minutes without Wemby and we never have to see him as the 5 again.

 

[Fabbs]

How can you say he can "definitely defend" when every non victor defensive line up Sochan has ever played in has been terrible? I don't think I have ever found even a league average "sochan without wemby" defensive lineup since he's been here. The only things that point to Sochan being a good defender are exceptionally convoluted advanced stats that mostly don't make any logical sense. Like his "isolation defense" numbers but if him, Devin, and Victor all put their hand up to challenge a shot only one of them can get the "isolation defense" metric for it so out of those 3 why would it be Sochan?

Solid point. I don't remember how exactly Sochan did but every Spur should be viewed from a w and w/o Wemby lense.
I believe ambchang has the O and D stats with and w/o Wemby.

 

[poopbox]

I'm the one not following you... I'd trade Sochan, Keldone and Vassell in a heartbeat but they are in the roster. Even with their limitations this team ceiling is PO through play in. I just don't believe Carter is a short term solution for the team to reduce minutes of those 3. That's my point, I'm not saying the 3 muskateers are not flawed or are not hurting the team. If we had 3 better dudes to replace them, we would be contender

While I don't view Carter as a short term solution to anything I do think the best version of the San Antonio Spurs is him being able to guard 1 - 3 really well and some small ball 4's so you might as well get started on that process now. A useless player who has never done anything for your team like Sochan who is actually in line to get a substantial pay increase is the perfect candidate to give Carter's minutes to.

 

[Shmurs]

I'm the one not following you... I'd trade Sochan, Keldone and Vassell in a heartbeat but they are in the roster. Even with their limitations this team ceiling is PO through play in. I just don't believe Carter is a short term solution for the team to reduce minutes of those 3. That's my point, I'm not saying the 3 muskateers are not flawed or are not hurting the team. If we had 3 better dudes to replace them, we would be contender

“If used cleverly they have value” is where you lost me in the first post.

Keldon’s flat out a bad NBA player and has no value no matter how he’s used unless you’re the wizards.

If your point is that we’re stuck with these 3 for better or worse and that Bryant is too raw to be put into the lineup, ok. Fair point. Too bad Wright thought signing a backup C and nothing else was a terrific offseason. But that’s not much of anything. It’s just bad news.

 

[KobesAchilles]

To each on its own, as I said previously with that roster a reasonable ambition is play in, less than that would be a disappointment even with what you call 3 dead weight. If used cleverly the 3 have value in a supporting role. A very above expectation season would be a direct spot to POs.

Only reason a direct spot in the playoffs is an above expectation season is bc those 3 suck and don’t mesh

 

[brazil]

“If used cleverly they have value” is where you lost me in the first post.

Keldon’s flat out a bad NBA player and has no value no matter how he’s used unless you’re the wizards.

If your point is that we’re stuck with these 3 for better or worse and that Bryant is too raw to be put into the lineup, ok. Fair point. Too bad Wright thought signing a backup C and nothing else was a terrific offseason. But that’s not much of anything. It’s just bad news.

yes it is exactly my point. As a whole, Spurs made some good moves tbh.. I am ok with the sticking with Harper and not going for trading him throwing too much on a deal for Giannis for instance, I liked the FA signings BUT this offseason did not solve one of the biggest issue which is lack of shooting... I would have loved a trade sending Keldone or Sochan or both for a shooter but it did not happen so yeah we are stuck. Let's hope Vassell will step up next year but thats some wishful thinking.

Keldone would be fine as an energy guy off the bench for 10 to 12 mn and not 25 mn like last season. Keldone is a below average NBA player doing below average things tbh and guess what... teams don't want to trade their above average player to below average dude, he has low value in today's NBA. Sochan case is a bit different, I don't know what Spurs intend to do but hopefully no long and costly extension.

 

[Ariel]

If your point is that we’re stuck with these 3 for better or worse and that Bryant is too raw to be put into the lineup, ok. Fair point. Too bad Wright thought signing a backup C and nothing else was a terrific offseason. But that’s not much of anything. It’s just bad news.

Barring something drastic, Spurs will not have significant cap space until '27. Sochan expires in '26 and Keldon in '27, so the only contract we're "stuck with" is really Vassell, which is why he should be included in trades if possible. Otherwise Spurs' books are clear (depending on how you see Fox, tbh).

 

[brazil]

Only reason a direct spot in the playoffs is an above expectation season is bc those 3 suck and don’t mesh

that and the fact that Fox and Wemby have to play together for more than 10 games and the fact we lack shooting and the fact we have a #2 pick to get acclimated... I don't think there was an opportunity to get a real 3&D on the market for keldone and/or sochan

 

[ambchang]

How can you say he can "definitely defend" when every non victor defensive line up Sochan has ever played in has been terrible? I don't think I have ever found even a league average "sochan without wemby" defensive lineup since he's been here. The only things that point to Sochan being a good defender are exceptionally convoluted advanced stats that mostly don't make any logical sense. Like his "isolation defense" numbers but if him, Devin, and Victor all put their hand up to challenge a shot only one of them can get the "isolation defense" metric for it so out of those 3 why would it be Sochan?

Depends on how you want to define it. There were only 11 5 man line ups last year and only 4 without wemby. Of those only 1 has sochan on it. Yeah, the defense was terrible but that lineup had no center (sochan was it) with Vassell and Barnes. So what can you draw from that? Nothing.

Expand the criteria to lineups with 30+ mins, which is an awfully small sample, and there were 19 lineups, the second best of those is a lineup without wemby but with sochan on it. Does that mean sochan is great on defense? No, it’s an aberration based on an extremely small sample size.

Five man lineups are tough to review as the minutes are just too low, and any random line up is dependent on the make up of the team, you put a team without a proper defensive makeup and it will be killed regardless whether you have good individual defenders. I personally like to look at individual drtg relative to the team and sochan trends nicely, without wemby hes one of the better on the team as well.

If you want to expand the minutes restriction but still look at lineups, I looked up 3-man lineups with over 400 mins and of the 17 lineups, sochan was on the 6th best 3man defensive lineup with wemby lineups taking the top 4 spots, meaning he was in the second best non wemby lineup. He only appeared on 2 of these lineups and the other lineup was 8th best overall and 3rd best non wemby lineup.

Those two lineups had drtg of 111.3 and 111.7 , which would’ve ranked 6th and 7th best in the league last year. Considering Chris Paul was the only one appearing on both lineups (Vassell in the better of the two and Barnes in the other), where as Paul lineups are all over the play defensively, and both Barnes and Vassell were generally bad, I’d say sochan did pretty well defensively. Of course there is the chance that wemby was in 399 of the 400 mins of those 3 man lineup, but I would say that’s a rather extreme scenario.

 

[Thoodee]

While I don't view Carter as a short term solution to anything I do think the best version of the San Antonio Spurs is him being able to guard 1 - 3 really well and some small ball 4's so you might as well get started on that process now. A useless player who has never done anything for your team like Sochan who is actually in line to get a substantial pay increase is the perfect candidate to give Carter's minutes to.

Might be in the minority, but expectations are higher this year. Maybe last year i wouldnt have minded throwing a player in the deep end like this, but seeing how carter played in summer league, its highly likely spurs again dont make the play in leaning on the kid too much. This is not to say I dont see some very high potential in him in years to come. Here’s hoping im wrong and he competes w harper for rookie of the year.

 

[KobesAchilles]

Might be in the minority, but expectations are higher this year. Maybe last year i wouldnt have minded throwing a player in the deep end like this, but seeing how carter played in summer league, its highly likely spurs again dont make the play in leaning on the kid too much. This is not to say I dont see some very high potential in him in years to come. Here’s hoping im wrong and he competes w harper for rookie of the year.

Higher how? Do you expect us to have homecourt advantage this postseason? Or do you have us as the 5th or 6th seed?

Bc if you’re just talking about play-in and fighting for a playoff spot then that’s no reason not to play Carter Bryant significant minutes as the year progresses

 

[gilmor2002]

He's a pretty good on-ball defender but he plays shitty team defense- he has low awareness, slow anticipation, and shitty positioning/rotations. And he doesn't have enough quickness or strength to make up for his other shortcomings. Also he's too busy trying to instigate and be a twat to stay engaged. I am hopeful that having backup bigs will help his minutes without Wemby and we never have to see him as the 5 again.

Right on cue. Sochan looks bewildered and always fumbled plays when it comes to team defense. But individual one-on-one he is ok. Devin and KJ are the ones I have issues on. a team of Sochan, Castle and Wemby is a pretty good defensive line-up

 

[gilmor2002]

i watched all the playoff matcups on Indy last year. The defense is intense and a lot of help defense. Players like Nemhard, Nesmith are the models we shd go after. In the East and West, u need to lock up the PGs and main ball distributor.

 

[elpimpo4cc]

For starters/major rotation players I'm more interested in their lineups with Wemby than without tbh

 

[Thoodee]

Bc if you’re just talking about play-in and fighting for a playoff spot then that’s no reason not to play Carter Bryant significant minutes as the year progresses

I would disagree. I dont see them getting the 5th or 6th spot, but getting in the playin-in is essential this year, atleast optically for the spurs’s ultimate priority, wemby. I can definitely see a narrative pushed questioning him as a generational talent or that spurs are the appropriate org to have him. Either would be bad news and is all the reason in the world not to play a green rookie heavy minutes.

 

[Ariel]

I would disagree. I dont see them getting the 5th or 6th spot, but getting in the playin-in is essential this year, atleast optically for the spurs’s ultimate priority, wemby. I can definitely see a narrative pushed questioning him as a generational talent or that spurs are the appropriate org to have him. Either would be bad news and is all the reason in the world not to play a green rookie heavy minutes.

Yeah, I was thinking something along those lines for a long time (posted that at ST probably when Wemby got drafted). Definitely not making the play in will be pinned on Wemby, and used against him personally in individual accolades. It always plays a part, but I can see the big media being especially vicious with Wemby if Spurs fall short of the play in, some even pushing an agenda to drive him away from the Spurs. I wouldn't want that with extension negotiations looming on the horizon. I'd say:
1) making the play in should be the bare minimum for heads not to roll (unless major health issues happen, knock on wood)
2) making the playoffs via the play in (and developing the young core) should qualify as meeting expectations.
3) making the playoffs outright and presenting battle in the first round should qualify as a success.
More than that would be awesome.

 

[elpimpo4cc]

42 wins is success


wemby can either be a winner or a loser this year

 

[KobesAchilles]

I would disagree. I dont see them getting the 5th or 6th spot, but getting in the playin-in is essential this year, atleast optically for the spurs’s ultimate priority, wemby. I can definitely see a narrative pushed questioning him as a generational talent or that spurs are the appropriate org to have him. Either would be bad news and is all the reason in the world not to play a green rookie heavy minutes.

Sorry I wasn’t very clear. I meant that I believe we can make the play-in if we give Carter a Bryant minutes. I actually believe we can fight for homecourt advantage if we start him.