Player Best Guard rotation in the NBA for the next decade

[DAF86]

If you can honestly say they didn’t pull it off with regularity like Manu did I don’t have anything to say. I can’t force you to watch other players.

I watched plenty of those players. I've watched Stockton play live for several years @spurraider21 , and yeah, I didn't see those players pull the passes Manu did.

Also, you didn't answer who do you think the best dunker and the best ball-handler are? Is it because to determine those things you actually need to go with eye test and explanations that don't always have statistical support?

 

[DAF86]

Turnovers mean nothing in YouTube fancypass world.

Manu has won more than 99.9% of professional basketball players in the history of the game. I would say his supossed turnover problems are more than overblown.

 

[O_V]

Manu has won more than 99.9% of professional basketball players in the history of the game. I would say his supossed turnover problems are more than overblown.

Oh, now winning makes him a better passer? Lawl

 

[O_V]

Losers like Magic and Stockton weren't great passers.

 

[DAF86]

Oh, now winning makes him a better passer? Lawl

No, what I explained in detail in that long ass post I made is what makes Manu the best passer I have ever seen.

All his winning and the fact that Manu's lead offenses are historically well rated just serves as a counterargument for guys that said my only argument was that Manu "looked good" passing the ball.

No, besides "looking good" and making passes that other guys didn't, he also lead to a lot of winning and elite offenses, so this is clearly not a matter of style over substance, tbh.

 

[O_V]

Manu has won more than 99.9% of professional basketball players in the history of the game. I would say his supossed turnover problems are more than overblown.

Fun fact: Manu Ginobili is 7th all time in winning percentage.

Guess who is 1st?

 

[LeBowen]

Fun fact: Manu Ginobili is 7th all time in winning percentage.

Guess who is 1st?

Nephew? I'm pretty sure he was 1st up until a few years ago, not sure after these recent Clippers struggles.
If not him, then it has to be someone from Russell Celtics or Showtime Lakers.

 

[ambchang]

I watched plenty of those players. I've watched Stockton play live for several years @spurraider21 , and yeah, I didn't see those players pull the passes Manu did.

Also, you didn't answer who do you think the best dunker and the best ball-handler are? Is it because to determine those things you actually need to go with eye test and explanations that don't always have statistical support?

I’m not even sure how that relates but I know exactly what you wanted to go for. A pass is an essential play in an offensive system to enable better scoring opportunities, whereas a dunk mostly a way of finishing a play that does not make an offensive system run smoother.

Ball handler is again a way of keeping the basketball under pressure from defences. I don’t have any metrics but it’s mostly an aesthetic question. If you think passing is an aesthetic question then again I would disagree.

These are some magnificent passes that Stockton pulled off in his career. And it didn’t even include the pass from that finals game where he did a full court pass over the reach of Pippen perfectly in the hands of Pedo for a layup.

Nobody is saying Manu is a bad passer, in fact you are pretty much the only guy who is claiming Manu is the best passer because those look good and somehow claiming nobody else could do those passes, which is just bizarre.

Then pulling ginobilis winning percentage just gets weird, I’d say Duncan has a lot to do with that. Magic and Stockton led their offences, I’d say most people would say Duncan led the spurs offence for the large majority of the big three era.

To dismiss ginobilis turnover issues is pure whitewashing. It was a clear issue and the spurs worked around that and pop worked that into the system. It is a well documented part of spurs history. Again, if you want to just entirely dismiss then so be it.

 

[quark]

Passing is the "blood" of basketball

 

[BacktoBasics]

Oh, now winning makes him a better passer? Lawl

It makes bad passes less impactful over the bigger picture.

 

[Ice009]

Fun fact: Manu Ginobili is 7th all time in winning percentage.

Guess who is 1st?

I thought Manu was actually top 3? I thought TD, TP and Manu were all in the top 5 for winning percentage? Then again, I am basing that when they were all still playing together for the Spurs (I assume TP's dropped a bit with that last season in Charlotte).

 

[DAF86]

I’m not even sure how that relates but I know exactly what you wanted to go for. A pass is an essential play in an offensive system to enable better scoring opportunities, whereas a dunk mostly a way of finishing a play that does not make an offensive system run smoother.

Ball handler is again a way of keeping the basketball under pressure from defences. I don’t have any metrics but it’s mostly an aesthetic question. If you think passing is an aesthetic question then again I would disagree.

These are some magnificent passes that Stockton pulled off in his career. And it didn’t even include the pass from that finals game where he did a full court pass over the reach of Pippen perfectly in the hands of Pedo for a layup.

Nobody is saying Manu is a bad passer, in fact you are pretty much the only guy who is claiming Manu is the best passer because those look good and somehow claiming nobody else could do those passes, which is just bizarre.

Then pulling ginobilis winning percentage just gets weird, I’d say Duncan has a lot to do with that. Magic and Stockton led their offences, I’d say most people would say Duncan led the spurs offence for the large majority of the big three era.

To dismiss ginobilis turnover issues is pure whitewashing. It was a clear issue and the spurs worked around that and pop worked that into the system. It is a well documented part of spurs history. Again, if you want to just entirely dismiss then so be it.

If I were to tell you that Manu lead offenses (without Duncan) rate significantly higher than Duncan lead offenses (without Manu), you would probably dismiss it saying that Manu played vs opposing benches, even if I were to tell you than the same is true for crunch time minutes.

If I were to tell you Manu's pick and rolls were significantly more productive than Duncan's post ups, you would also probably try to find an excuse to justify your pre-conceived notions.

Maybe dismissing Manu's turnovers isn't "whitewashing", maybe it is the smart thing to do since metrics indicate that Manu is one of the most efficient offensively players of all-time, turnovers or not. Maybe the turnovers were a calculated risk that was well damn worth the risk.

Passing is an essential part of basketball, just as is ballhandling, and there's not a single stat that can accurately tell you who's better in those areas. Westbrook isn't one of the best passers of all-time just because he got the chance to hog the ball as he wished during his prime and average over 10 assists per game, tbh.

For these things you inevitably need the eye test and a great indicator is that if player A can pull all the passes that player B pulls, but player B doesn't make the same passes that player A makes, then it's probably because player A is the better passer.

 

[O_V]

I thought Manu was actually top 3? I thought TD, TP and Manu were all in the top 5 for winning percentage? Then again, I am basing that when they were all still playing together for the Spurs (I assume TP's dropped a bit with that last season in Charlotte).

As a group, they definitely are for sure. Individually, according to basketball reference, Manu is seventh and Magic is first. The point I was making was Magic is first.

 

[Ice009]

As a group, they definitely are for sure. Individually, according to basketball reference, Manu is seventh and Magic is first. The point I was making was Magic is first.

Thanks. I should have guessed Magic was up very high. Who else is on the list? I'm not too good at searching that kind of stuff.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

As a group, they definitely are for sure. Individually, according to basketball reference, Manu is seventh and Magic is first. The point I was making was Magic is first.

If we keep the cutoff as 1000 games..the top 3 are Manu, Timmy and TP. Spurs fans were blessed.

Manu will forever remain my favourite player. Interestingly, Wemby's play reminds me of him. Like a 7' 5'' Manu.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

Thanks. I should have guessed Magic was up very high. Who else is on the list? I'm not too good at searching that kind of stuff.

If the cutoff is 700 games...the top 10.

 

[Fabbs]

Thanks. I should have guessed Magic was up very high. Who else is on the list? I'm not too good at searching that kind of stuff.

Legit wins is Bird.
Magics leaving because of the virus allowed him to avoid some Laker down years whereas Bird held on too long.

I'm semi stunned it wasn't Bill Russell or one of those players on the 11 of 13 Championship teams.

 

[DTW]

Assist percentage isn't everything, but for reference Ginobili's 24.5% doesn't even crack the top 250.

Obviously, that doesn't mean he couldn't still be one of the better passers of all time, but to say he's clearly the best and do so while throwing Duncan under the bus in the process, is being a home to the extreme.

 

[DAF86]

Assist percentage isn't everything, but for reference Ginobili's 24.5% doesn't even crack the top 250.

Obviously, that doesn't mean he couldn't still be one of the better passers of all time, but to say he's clearly the best and do so while throwing Duncan under the bus in the process, is being a home to the extreme.

How was I throwing Duncan under the bus?

 

[O_V]

Thanks. I should have guessed Magic was up very high. Who else is on the list? I'm not too good at searching that kind of stuff.

Magic 1, Bird 2, KC Jones 3, Coop 4, Kawhi 5, Heinsohm 6, Manu 7

 

[O_V]

Legit wins is Bird.
Magics leaving because of the virus allowed him to avoid some Laker down years whereas Bird held on too long.

I'm semi stunned it wasn't Bill Russell or one of those players on the 11 of 13 Championship teams.

KC Jones and Tommy Heinsohn were on those teams, right?

 

[Fabbs]

Denver has a nice little lead but then continually choked it away in the late 3rd and 4th.
Getting worked by punk ass Podz and Payton Jr. Wow.

How long is Joker signed for? I know he's not going anywhere but wonder if he considers going to another team.

Welp it gives the Spurs another game of breathing room.

 

[ambchang]

If I were to tell you that Manu lead offenses (without Duncan) rate significantly higher than Duncan lead offenses (without Manu), you would probably dismiss it saying that Manu played vs opposing benches, even if I were to tell you than the same is true for crunch time minutes.

If I were to tell you Manu's pick and rolls were significantly more productive than Duncan's post ups, you would also probably try to find an excuse to justify your pre-conceived notions.

Maybe dismissing Manu's turnovers isn't "whitewashing", maybe it is the smart thing to do since metrics indicate that Manu is one of the most efficient offensively players of all-time, turnovers or not. Maybe the turnovers were a calculated risk that was well damn worth the risk.

Passing is an essential part of basketball, just as is ballhandling, and there's not a single stat that can accurately tell you who's better in those areas. Westbrook isn't one of the best passers of all-time just because he got the chance to hog the ball as he wished during his prime and average over 10 assists per game, tbh.

For these things you inevitably need the eye test and a great indicator is that if player A can pull all the passes that player B pulls, but player B doesn't make the same passes that player A makes, then it's probably because player A is the better passer.

And if I were to tell you Brent Barry had some amazing offensive ratings number during his tenure with the spurs I’m not sure how you’d interpret that.

Like I said, the offense is around Duncan, and Duncan carried the team before the emergence of Manu and later Parker. With manus improvement on offence during Duncan’s prime I won’t expect anything less than amazing offensive numbers. Point is, Stockton to Malone, Nash/magic/Jokic and even Kidd led offences were historically great, often times without counterparts who were as strong as Duncan and Parker, so I’m not sure how you’d interpret that.

For ball handling, I’d take driving rate vs turnovers vs points per drive, but I don’t have those figures so it’s moot.

Funny you brought up Westbrook as he isn’t a good passer precisely because he has lots of turnovers.

Manus turnovers generally comes from calculated risks, I absolutely agree, but to say they don’t matter and shouldn’t be addressed is just glossing over the issue. I’m also positive manu is one of the best hockey assists guys as well and his presence does help move the offence, but so did magic, bird, Stockton, Nash and Jokic. I’m comfortable saying manus one of the best passers in the nba, but to say that he is the best, by unnecessarily discounting the effectiveness of other historically great passers is ignorance.

Also glad you dropped dunking, because we know you were going with aesthetics, just as you were going for ball handling.

 

[Exstatic]

If the cutoff is 700 games...the top 10.

Fuck Kawhi. No need to lower the bar to include his broken self.

 

[DAF86]

And if I were to tell you Brent Barry had some amazing offensive ratings number during his tenure with the spurs I’m not sure how you’d interpret that.

Like I said, the offense is around Duncan, and Duncan carried the team before the emergence of Manu and later Parker. With manus improvement on offence during Duncan’s prime I won’t expect anything less than amazing offensive numbers. Point is, Stockton to Malone, Nash/magic/Jokic and even Kidd led offences were historically great, often times without counterparts who were as strong as Duncan and Parker, so I’m not sure how you’d interpret that.

For ball handling, I’d take driving rate vs turnovers vs points per drive, but I don’t have those figures so it’s moot.

Funny you brought up Westbrook as he isn’t a good passer precisely because he has lots of turnovers.

Manus turnovers generally comes from calculated risks, I absolutely agree, but to say they don’t matter and shouldn’t be addressed is just glossing over the issue. I’m also positive manu is one of the best hockey assists guys as well and his presence does help move the offence, but so did magic, bird, Stockton, Nash and Jokic. I’m comfortable saying manus one of the best passers in the nba, but to say that he is the best, by unnecessarily discounting the effectiveness of other historically great passers is ignorance.

Also glad you dropped dunking, because we know you were going with aesthetics, just as you were going for ball handling.

Brent Barry wasn't an on-ball player, though. Nor his pick and rolls rated highers than Duncan's post ups, tbh.

Manu is great on his own. He would have been great anywhere he landed. In fact, he would probably be rated higher right now if he would have landed somewhere where he could have had a higher usage.

Either way, I'm getting off topic. To me Manu is the greatest passer of all-time because I've seen him pull passes that nobody else did, I don't care that he didn't have the usage of others players. In fact, with the ball in his hands more, he probably would have done even more. Either way, no point in keep arguing this one since we'll never get on board.