Player Best Guard rotation in the NBA for the next decade

[k....]

I am going to have to tell yall about the harlem globtrotters, a team so good they aren't allowed to play in the NBA. Their assists are out of this world . That Manu could not get a job there speaks volumes about his ability.

 

[DAF86]

Manu was a fantastic passer in his own right, but to say he is the best passer in the history of the league is just too much. He is nowhere close to the top in any assists categories, and that is not just because he played less minutes or was willing to come off the bench, but his assist percentage (didn't even crack top 250) or assists per 36 pr assists per 100 isn't either.

Points against	Stats	Counter-argument
Manu isn't anywhere near the top in assists in his career.	Stockton sits at the top at 15.806. Manu is at 4,001, which puts him at #131 all time.	He didn't play as many games.
He's not even close to top in assists per game either, not even his career high year.	Magic sits at the top at 11.19, Manu is at 3.8. Khris Middleton, at 250, averaged 3.92.	He came off the bench so he played less minutes.
Not there for assists/36 either.	Stockton is #1 at 11.91, Manu is #244 at 5.36.	The Spurs played at a lower pace.
Or assists/100	Stockton is #1 at 16.83, Manu is #188 at 7.83.	He is not the main ball handler all the time.
Or assists %age.	Stockton is #1 at 50.24. #250 Kenny Higgs is at 25.29. Manu is at 24.5	The Spurs played a style that spreads out the assists.
His assists to TO ratio isn't close to stellar.	Manu didn't even hit 2, when the best ever, Chris Paul, hits 4.03.	Tyus Jones is leading the league in it, is he the best passer now?
Well, but Manu isn't in the top in any of the assists categories.		He looks great doing it.

@DAF86 's sole argument right now is that he looks great doing it, which I absolutely agree, but Manu took extreme risks to do so. His career assists to turnover ration isn't even 2:1 (4001 assists to 2116 turnovers, for 1.89) points this out. Players like Jokic, Magic, Stockton, Bird, Kidd, Chris Paul, Nash or even Lebron James can do those passes as well. If you want to look for flair, Jason Wililams threw some absolutely incredible passes in his career, but I would never call him one of the best passers in NBA history.

I didn't check, but Tony probably ranks higher than Manu in most, if not all of these metrics, yet I think we can all agree Tony isn't on the same level as Manu in terms of passing. You just can't analyze Manu just by looking at stats. Manu was the complete opposite of a stat-padder.

 

[O_V]

What makes Magic a better passer in your opinion? What kind of pass could Magic make than Manu can't?

I'll only address the first question because the second one is stupid: Look at his career.

 

[DAF86]

I'll only address the first question because the second one is stupid: Look at his career.

So, just numbers? I guess Tony is a better passer than Manu too, then. If you aren't willing to argue past stats, then there's no point in us having this conversation, tbh.

 

[ambchang]

I didn't check, but Tony probably ranks higher than Manu in most, if not all of these metrics, yet I think we can all agree Tony isn't on the same level as Manu in terms of passing. You just can't analyze Manu just by looking at stats. Manu was the complete opposite of a stat-padder.

Already addressed that in the 2nd last counter argument. In the grand scheme of things, Tony was the one who ran the offence more when he was on the court. Saying Manu was the best passer just because he looked better to you is OK, it's your opinion, but like others have said Jason Williams threw some nifty passes in his time but nobody in their right minds would call him one of the best passers of all time.

Manu's turnovers is a reflection of the passes he made, they are of high difficulty and he created something out of nothing, but you cannot run an offence based on those passes because it would absolutely destroy the overall efficiency. They are a great weapon to have. Rex Chapman nailed a bunch of exceedingly difficult shots in his career, doesn't make him one of the best shooters in league history.

 

[O_V]

So the David Tyree catch makes Eli Manning the greatest passer in the history of the NFL.

 

[O_V]

So, just numbers? I guess Tony is a better passer than Manu too, then. If you aren't willing to argue past stats, then there's no point in us having this conversation, tbh.

Yes, if you're going to put Magic Johnson's entire hall-of-fame career, where he averaged more assists per game than anyone else, against many of the league's greatest players, during the golden era of the NBA, as just numbers, then yes, I guess there's no point in us having this conversation.

 

[O_V]

Are the games back on yet?

 

[The Truth #6]

I think Manu is the most underrated passer of all time, perhaps. His passing strength is different than Chris Paul's obsession to be running isolation pick and rolls and getting assists that way.

However, I do think whenever Manu was on the court, the ball moved around extremely well, even if he wasn't the actual point guard, and that was way more of a beautiful game than when Chris Paul would play his itemized version of basketball.

Yes, I am praising Manu as a way to also criticize CP3. We can go back to doing that now, right?

 

[DAF86]

Already addressed that in the 2nd last counter argument. In the grand scheme of things, Tony was the one who ran the offence more when he was on the court. Saying Manu was the best passer just because he looked better to you is OK, it's your opinion, but like others have said Jason Williams threw some nifty passes in his time but nobody in their right minds would call him one of the best passers of all time.

Manu's turnovers is a reflection of the passes he made, they are of high difficulty and he created something out of nothing, but you cannot run an offence based on those passes because it would absolutely destroy the overall efficiency. They are a great weapon to have. Rex Chapman nailed a bunch of exceedingly difficult shots in his career, doesn't make him one of the best shooters in league history.

Manu's lead offenses were consisntely the best rated offenses in the different Spurs lineups across the years. The fact that Manu could pull those passes doesn't mean he would try them all the time. He knew to balance things out to consistely lead the best stretches of offense in the team and win things at every level and every team he played for. So I would say Manu's offense leading skills are just fine, tbh.

Either way, we are not discussing that here. We are discussing strictly passing. Tony didn't have the skillset nor the vision to pull the passes Manu did. The fact that the system was designed in a way that allowed Tony to have the ball on his hands more and rack up easier assists while taking less risks, doesn't mean he was more skilled as a passer, tbh.

 

[bozhemoi]

Y'all find a way to fight about Tony vs. Manu again?

 

[The Truth #6]

I was somehow trying to do Manu versus CP3.

Regardless, I think there's an important distinction to be made between passing ability and functionally running the offense as a point guard in pick and roll scenarios. Chris Paul and John Stockton racked up tons of assists just by doing pick and roll over and over again, which was not Manu's main thing.

However, when Manu was on the floor, the whole team as a cohesive unit passed much better. That's a distinction to CP3 where he would just play in isolation with a post player while everyone else kind of stood around, so to speak.

 

[rascal]

Manu is overrated by Spur fans especially Spur fans from Argentina.

 

[DAF86]

Manu is overrated by Spur fans especially Spur fans from Argentina.

Nah, Manu is the most underrated player of all-time by casuals like you. Thankfully, basketball fans are getting smarter and Manu is starting to get a little more recognition.

 

[ambchang]

Manu's lead offenses were consisntely the best rated offenses in the different Spurs lineups across the years. The fact that Manu could pull those passes doesn't mean he would try them all the time. He knew to balance things out to consistely lead the best stretches of offense in the team and win things at every level and every team he played for. So I would say Manu's offense leading skills are just fine, tbh.

Either way, we are not discussing that here. We are discussing strictly passing. Tony didn't have the skillset nor the vision to pull the passes Manu did. The fact that the system was designed in a way that allowed Tony to have the ball on his hands more and rack up easier assists while taking less risks, doesn't mean he was more skilled as a passer, tbh.

I love Manu (2nd favourite of all time behind the Admiral) but to use him leading offences and saying that is because he was the best passer of all time is faulty logic. Brent Barry also played on some great offensive lineups over the years as well, but no way was he one of the best passers. Then you have guys like Nash, Magic, early Isiah, even Harden driving some of the best offences in NBA history but were dismissed.

Manu didn't get the nickname Turnobili for nothing, he had a high risk high reward play style, and to his credit, it works most of the time especially during clutch situations because he is that good, but he did have a LOT of turnovers over the years because of it, especially considering that the Spurs generally likes to spread the ball around in their offence since around 2008 or so.

I am not saying Tony was the better passer, I am just saying Tony ran the offence more during his days with the Spurs, but to use an exception and universally dismiss great passers because Manu looked better to you makes zero sense. What argument do you have other than Manu looked great doing it? I haven't seen any.

 

[DAF86]

I love Manu (2nd favourite of all time behind the Admiral) but to use him leading offences and saying that is because he was the best passer of all time is faulty logic. Brent Barry also played on some great offensive lineups over the years as well, but no way was he one of the best passers. Then you have guys like Nash, Magic, early Isiah, even Harden driving some of the best offences in NBA history but were dismissed.

Manu didn't get the nickname Turnobili for nothing, he had a high risk high reward play style, and to his credit, it works most of the time especially during clutch situations because he is that good, but he did have a LOT of turnovers over the years because of it, especially considering that the Spurs generally likes to spread the ball around in their offence since around 2008 or so.

I am not saying Tony was the better passer, I am just saying Tony ran the offence more during his days with the Spurs, but to use an exception and universally dismiss great passers because Manu looked better to you makes zero sense. What argument do you have other than Manu looked great doing it? I haven't seen any.

I already explained it in detail.

And I as I' ve already said: that's more than a valid argument, but if you must know why I think the way I do: Manu's passing displays a level of sophistication that I don't see in other players.

Manu is the king of throwing the ball exactly to the pocket where it needs to be for his teamate to just grab it and go. Many times leading his teammate and showing him what's the best space to go before even his teammate realizes it.

He manipulates not only his teamamtes movements, but the opponents too. He anticipates the defenders movements to throw the passes at precisely the perfect angles, this involves many times throwing it between the defender's legs, which is something nobody else in the history of the league did nearly as much as Manu. And this wasn't for flash, it was just because it was the absolute best angle to throw the pass.

As another poster said above, Manu threw real no-look passes. Not this bullshit where you are seeing your teammate all the time and just look the other side at the last second. Real no look passes are impossible to anticipate, which again is real advantage, not for show.

Manu was also a master of spins. He would curl a baseline entire width of the court cross pass that avoids all the oposing hands to hit his teamate right on the chest. He would also throw a bounce pass with just the perfect spin so as to, once the ball bounced, it would swerve away from the defense and would hit his teammate perfectly in stride for an unconstested layup.

These are things that I haven't seen any other player in the history of the league do with the consistency that Manu did. That's why he's the best passer of all-time by considerable distance, imho.

 

[ambchang]

I already explained it in detail.

I am not even sure what those mean. Jokic, Bird, Magic, Kidd, Stockton, Nash, Lebron, Jason Williams, and a host of others routinely throw those types of passes. Unless you want to say Manu's passes were somehow more technically advanced than those players and those guys cannot do it well, which I am not sure how to respond, because it's clearly not true.

 

[DAF86]

I am not even sure what those mean. Jokic, Bird, Magic, Kidd, Stockton, Nash, Lebron, Jason Williams, and a host of others routinely throw those types of passes. Unless you want to say Manu's passes were somehow more technically advanced than those players and those guys cannot do it well, which I am not sure how to respond, because it's clearly not true.

I don't know if they can pull those passes or not, I'm saying I haven't seen them do it with the regularity that Manu did.

Let me ask you, who do you think is the best dunker of all-time and why?

Also, who do you think is the best ball-handler of all-time and why?

 

[O_V]

I don't know if they can pull those passes or not, I'm saying I haven't seen them do it with the regularity that Manu did.

Let me ask you, who do you think is the best dunker of all-time and why?

Also, who do you think is the best ball-handler of all-time and why?

Kornet had that awesome putback last night, so he's the best dunker of all time. Anything else is just numbers.

 

[DAF86]

 

[sfernald]

I think what I like best about castle is the dawg in him. It’s fucking contagious! He has that fire burning all the time and it’s gets the other guards lit to defend. At it gets wemby fired up. Wemby fired up is like watching the sun explode.

 

[longtimelurker]

Manu is my favorite player of all time but why is the burden of proof for best passer of all time on guys like Magic, Nash, Stockton, JKidd, CP3, etc. when they all have better passing counting stats and more hardware than Ginobili tbh

Manu was the great but not the best for sure, too wild. But that wid magic, so sweet.
As far as hardware, except for Magic he has three more LOBs (the only hardware that counts) than the rest of those bitches

 

[ambchang]

I don't know if they can pull those passes or not, I'm saying I haven't seen them do it with the regularity that Manu did.

Let me ask you, who do you think is the best dunker of all-time and why?

Also, who do you think is the best ball-handler of all-time and why?

If you can honestly say they didn’t pull it off with regularity like Manu did I don’t have anything to say. I can’t force you to watch other players.

 

[spurraider21]

If you can honestly say they didn’t pull it off with regularity like Manu did I don’t have anything to say. I can’t force you to watch other players.

In his headcanon every Stockton assist was a basic bounce pass to Malone

 

[O_V]

Turnovers mean nothing in YouTube fancypass world.