Player Best Guard rotation in the NBA for the next decade

[DAF86]

manu was up there when it comes to flair and degree of difficulty on passes he was able to execute, but saying he's the best passer in nba history is laughable

Why, because he didn't average 10 assist per game?

 

[spurraider21]

Why, because he didn't average 10 assist per game?

because there were better passers. the three best ive seen are Chris Paul, Jokic, and LeBron

if you just compared highlights you could convince yourself JR Smith is one of the best players the league has ever seen.

being a great passer doesnt just mean making passes with flair. if you want to say manu is a more creative passer than some other guys, yeah i guess thats a conversation one could have but that really becomes an eye of the beholder type thing. consistency and making the right passes, not just the flashiest, is a big part of it. what makes CP3 great is he basically always made the right pass, with precision, with flair when necessary, and with minimal turnovers. manu was turning over more than once time for every 2 assists he had.

 

[DAF86]

because there were better passers. the two best ive seen are Chris Paul and LeBron

if you just compared highlights you could convince yourself JR Smith is one of the best players the league has ever seen.

Ok, what makes Paul and Lebron better passers than Manu in your opinion?

 

[spurraider21]

Ok, what makes Paul and Lebron better passers than Manu in your opinion?

more consistency. i think they more consistently saw the floor better and didnt put the ball in harms way as often while executing perfect passes with zip and placement.

at some point, the totals or averages do matter as well. calling somebody the best scorer of all time who averaged 15ppg for his career with a career high of 19ppg would be pretty toothless if your evidence is all the wild highlight videos of circus shots he's made

 

[DAF86]

more consistency. i think they more consistently saw the floor better and didnt put the ball in harms way as often while executing perfect passes with zip and placement.

at some point, the totals or averages do matter as well. calling somebody the best scorer of all time who averaged 15ppg for his career with a career high of 19ppg would be pretty toothless if your evidence is all the wild highlight videos of circus shots he's made

And how do you determine that?

 

[spurraider21]

i think nash's MVP season with stoudemire missing the whole year but the suns offense not missing a beat is pretty compelling of his greatness as a passer. its something we saw manu be able to do for a stretch of 2-3 games at a time, but how often did he put it together and just carve teams up with his passing game after game?

jason kidd another example of this. somebody who was a decent scoring threat but nevertheless was able to guide elite offenses on the strength of his vision and passing

 

[spurraider21]

And how do you determine that?

i watched their flashiest passes on youtube

 

[Mugen]

Manu is my favorite player of all time but why is the burden of proof for best passer of all time on guys like Magic, Nash, Stockton, JKidd, CP3, etc. when they all have better passing counting stats and more hardware than Ginobili tbh

 

[DAF86]

i think nash's MVP season with stoudemire missing the whole year but the suns offense not missing a beat is pretty compelling of his greatness as a passer. its something we saw manu be able to do for a stretch of 2-3 games at a time, but how often did he put it together and just carve teams up with his passing game after game?

jason kidd another example of this. somebody who was a decent scoring threat but nevertheless was able to guide elite offenses on the strength of his vision and passing

So basically you are saying the fact that Manu just accepted coming off the bench and didn't demand the role and minutes that his talents warranted makes him ilegible for best passer of all-time?

 

[DAF86]

Manu is my favorite player of all time but why is the burden of proof for best passer of all time on guys like Magic, Nash, Stockton, JKidd, CP3, etc. when they all have better passing counting stats and more hardware than Ginobili tbh

I'm just asking posters on this site for their opinions, I already stated why I think Manu is the greatest passer of all-time. And no, it's not simply because his passing highlights are better than anybody else out there, although that's a perfectly acceptable reason.

If I say "Vince Carter is the greatest dunker of all-time", saying his dunking highlights are better than anyone else's is a more than a valid argument. I don't care that Shaq probably had thousands more dunks, missed less and won more hardware with them.

 

[spurraider21]

So basically you are saying the fact that Manu just accepted coming off the bench and didn't demand the role and minutes that his talents warranted makes him ilegible for best passer of all-time?

no thats what you're saying

 

[spurraider21]

Manu is my favorite player of all time but why is the burden of proof for best passer of all time on guys like Magic, Nash, Stockton, JKidd, CP3, etc. when they all have better passing counting stats and more hardware than Ginobili tbh

because daf is from argentina

 

[DAF86]

because daf is from argentina

I can tell you are out of arguments, tbh.

 

[spurraider21]

A random compilation of Manu passing it to a specific temamate is objectively more impressive than Magic's top 10 assists of his career.

Manu is the greatest passer of all-time and it's not particularly close, tbh.

I guess Jokic can come somewhat close.

All the guys you are naming have the stats and the hype, but they don't have the passing skills that Manu had. Show me the best passing highlights of any of those guys and I can show you any from Manu that's infinitely better, tbh.

leading to...

I already stated why I think Manu is the greatest passer of all-time. And no, it's not simply because his passing highlights are better

buddy, as shown above... thats literally been your argument. if you want to argue that a 5 minute reel of highlight passes from manu holds its own against anybody else's 5 minute reel i dont think you'd be getting as much pushback

 

[Mugen]

I'm just asking posters on this site for their opinions, I already stated why I think Manu is the greatest passer of all-time. And no, it's not simply because his passing highlights are better than anybody else out there, although that's a perfectly acceptable reason.

If I say "Vince Carter is the greatest dunker of all-time", saying his dunking highlights are better than anyone else's is a more than a valid argument. I don't care that Shaq probably had thousands more dunks, missed less and won more hardware with them.

Actually, Manu is the best dunker of all time IMO.

 

[spurraider21]

Actually, Manu is the best dunker of all time IMO.

shotblocker too. block on harden, fastbreak block on durant and d-wade, blocking KG and taking him to the floor, blocking chandler at the apex of an alley-oop...

 

[Mugen]

FWIW, Kidd was the best passer that I actually watched play in his prime.

But Manu did give an actual testicle to the game of basketball so I don't really begrudge anybody for having him as all time anything tbh.

 

[k....]

tony parker was a better passer, because he passed so many MF stiffs on his way to the basket.

 

[DAF86]

leading to...

buddy, as shown above... thats literally been your argument.

And I as I' ve already said: that's more than a valid argument, but if you must know why I think the way I do: Manu's passing displays a level of sophistication that I don't see in other players.

Manu is the king of throwing the ball exactly to the pocket where it needs to be for his teamate to just grab it and go. Many times leading his teammate and showing him what's the best space to go before even his teammate realizes it.

He manipulates not only his teamamtes movements, but the opponents too. He anticipates the defenders movements to throw the passes at precisely the perfect angles, this involves many times throwing it between the defender's legs, which is something nobody else in the history of the league did nearly as much as Manu. And this wasn't for flash, it was just because it was the absolute best angle to throw the pass.

As another poster said above, Manu threw real no-look passes. Not this bullshit where you are seeing your teammate all the time and just look the other side at the last second. Real no look passes are impossible to anticipate, which again is real advantage, not for show.

Manu was also a master of spins. He would curl a baseline entire width of the court cross pass that avoids all the oposing hands to hit his teamate right on the chest. He would also throw a bounce pass with just the perfect spin so as to, once the ball bounced, it would swerve away from the defense and would hit his teammate perfectly in stride for an unconstested layup.

These are things that I haven't seen any other player in the history of the league do with the consistency that Manu did. That's why he's the best passer of all-time by considerable distance, imho.

 

[scott]

more consistency. i think they more consistently saw the floor better and didnt put the ball in harms way as often while executing perfect passes with zip and placement.

at some point, the totals or averages do matter as well. calling somebody the best scorer of all time who averaged 15ppg for his career with a career high of 19ppg would be pretty toothless if your evidence is all the wild highlight videos of circus shots he's made

If we're just going by highlights, Jason Williams is both the greatest passer and greatest scorer of all time.

I watched a YouTube compilation, so clearly this is indisputable.

 

[DAF86]

If we're just going by highlights, Jason Williams is both the greatest passer and greatest scorer of all time.

I watched a YouTube compilation, so clearly this is indisputable.

Jason Williams being the greatest passer of all-time is definitely arguable, tbh.

 

[spurraider21]

If we're just going by highlights, Jason Williams is both the greatest passer and greatest scorer of all time.

I watched a YouTube compilation, so clearly this is indisputable.

ive never seen manu execute an elbow pass tbh

 

[DAF86]

ive never seen manu execute an elbow pass tbh

How many times have you seen Jason Williams pull that pass outside of an all-star game? Manu threw nutmegs regularly.

 

[scott]

I'll say this in all seriousness... a Jason Williams + Manu Ginobili highlight video would be hours of high grade entertainment. Both of those guys were so fun to watch.

 

[ambchang]

Manu was a fantastic passer in his own right, but to say he is the best passer in the history of the league is just too much. He is nowhere close to the top in any assists categories, and that is not just because he played less minutes or was willing to come off the bench, but his assist percentage (didn't even crack top 250) or assists per 36 pr assists per 100 isn't either.

Points against	Stats	Counter-argument
Manu isn't anywhere near the top in assists in his career.	Stockton sits at the top at 15.806. Manu is at 4,001, which puts him at #131 all time.	He didn't play as many games.
He's not even close to top in assists per game either, not even his career high year.	Magic sits at the top at 11.19, Manu is at 3.8. Khris Middleton, at 250, averaged 3.92.	He came off the bench so he played less minutes.
Not there for assists/36 either.	Stockton is #1 at 11.91, Manu is #244 at 5.36.	The Spurs played at a lower pace.
Or assists/100	Stockton is #1 at 16.83, Manu is #188 at 7.83.	He is not the main ball handler all the time.
Or assists %age.	Stockton is #1 at 50.24. #250 Kenny Higgs is at 25.29. Manu is at 24.5	The Spurs played a style that spreads out the assists.
His assists to TO ratio isn't close to stellar.	Manu didn't even hit 2, when the best ever, Chris Paul, hits 4.03.	Tyus Jones is leading the league in it, is he the best passer now?
Well, but Manu isn't in the top in any of the assists categories.		He looks great doing it.

@DAF86 's sole argument right now is that he looks great doing it, which I absolutely agree, but Manu took extreme risks to do so. His career assists to turnover ration isn't even 2:1 (4001 assists to 2116 turnovers, for 1.89) points this out. Players like Jokic, Magic, Stockton, Bird, Kidd, Chris Paul, Nash or even Lebron James can do those passes as well. If you want to look for flair, Jason Wililams threw some absolutely incredible passes in his career, but I would never call him one of the best passers in NBA history.