The Massive Puzzle of a Wemby-Centric Offense

[bozhemoi]

After the Hawks game, which showed some great flowing attacks where the team went small, leading to lots of openings into the lane and good perimeter shots, it got me thinking about the literally enormous challenge of working things ahead with Victor on offense.

With smaller lineups, often with Keldon and/or Sochan as the only bigs, there's a lot of drive-and-kick, cutting, speedy offense that we saw during the beautiful game era, that displaces defenses and forces opponents to make a lot of decisions on the fly. These sets are able to pull shot-blocking defenders out against quicker players (Porzingis defending Keldon, for example), leaving the interior open.

When we play Wembanyama, however, simply by his massive size, he takes up a huge amount of space on the offensive side, and he's not really able to do the drive-and-kick style of things, because teams can pinch in and scoop at the ball. They've become adept at reading his drives and plugging him or drawing offensive charges. He's also slow to read the now-aggressive double teams, and those doubles (or triples) are hard to punish because we don't have the snipers to make teams pay.

The problem we face is that these are two different styles of offense. (In addition, Fox and especially Castle seem to like to play pick-n-roll heavy offenses, with Castle really looking for lobs on the rolls.) When Wemby is out there, it's hard to go for the free-flowing beautiful game type of system. But we want him out there because he's potentially so dominant. In a way, it's a battle between Duncan's 4-down dominant offense (although in different spots) vs. beautiful game.

It's very early, and I think they'll solve these problems to some degree, but it's clear that there are issues right now. Vic will get better at reading doubles, but his size -- basically, his requirement of real estate -- naturally gums up free-flowing sets. One reason why we see him getting posted at the corners at times. It's always a question of trying to draw the big defenders there to help on Vic out to the perimeter to open things up for drives and cuts. But there may always be a tradeoff -- either go fully into 4-down style and get pure shooters, or... well, with Victor that's almost what you have to do, a slower, more deliberate style. Or, you figure out how to manipulate defenses when Victor is in and get the benefits of the beautiful style. A more junky solution is learning how to switch depending on the personnel on the floor and manage game by game - although you always want Vic on the floor for his defense.

Something to keep an eye on this season. This will take time.

 

[spurraider21]

its not really his size that takes up a lot of space. its the amount of space he needs to operate his face up game where he likes to make sweeping crossovers, spins, etc. they have to clear up a whole side of the floor so he has room to dribble and move around. if he plays closer to the basket, a lot of those issues go away. and of course the pick and roll/pick and pop game helps with that too.

but the whole "give it to him at the top of the key and let him go to work" stuff is going to, at times, cramp spacing

 

[bozhemoi]

its not really his size that takes up a lot of space. its the amount of space he needs to operate his face up game where he likes to make sweeping crossovers, spins, etc. they have to clear up a whole side of the floor so he has room to dribble and move around. if he plays closer to the basket, a lot of those issues go away. and of course the pick and roll/pick and pop game helps with that too.

but the whole "give it to him at the top of the key and let him go to work" stuff is going to, at times, cramp spacing

Yeah, that's what I mean by his size. To activate and get in motion his circumference or radius or whatever takes up like half the court. You can't come near him because you'll draw another defender into the mix, and this stops any flowing play.

 

[Neuromancer]

I get that Vic doesn't want to be put in a box and has the skill to do all kinds of crazy shit on the court but the best way to maximize our offense is for him to play like a damn C in the paint. When he gets doubled out on the perimeter he is turning the ball over into an immediate fast break. I'm not saying Vic needs to abandon his perimeter game but it seems obvious he has the size and skill to be a physically imposing and dominant player in the paint and he prefers to not play like a traditional C on purpose.

If he is serious about being the GOAT he is going to need to understand it is better to have a couple unstoppable moves rather than an array of decent moves

 

[NotoriousHOP]

I think we are all in agreement that the best Wemby operates in the paint, ideally as an offensive hub. But he needs to improve his ability to see what the defense is doing and where they are at. When he takes too long to make the read, bad things happen. One, he draws quick double and triple teams which he has been having problems with. Two, he gets the ball taken away while he looks for who to pass it to. And three, his passes have resulted in frequent turnovers or the shooter has to move out of position to catch it

He is learning and quickly doing so. I'm all in on him but he needs time to fix the processing issues. I like to think that he is capable of doing so many things that it takes him too long to enumerate his options mentally. Once he develops a set of go-to moves, the rest of the league is cooked, as my kids might say.

 

[Exstatic]

I think we are all in agreement that the best Wemby operates in the paint, ideally as an offensive hub. But he needs to improve his ability to see what the defense is doing and where they are at. When he takes too long to make the read, bad things happen. One, he draws quick double and triple teams which he has been having problems with. Two, he gets the ball taken away while he looks for who to pass it to. And three, his passes have resulted in frequent turnovers or the shooter has to move out of position to catch it

He is learning and quickly doing so. I'm all in on him but he needs time to fix the processing issues. I like to think that he is capable of doing so many things that it takes him too long to enumerate his options mentally. Once he develops a set of go-to moves, the rest of the league is cooked, as my kids might say.

There was one game where the opponent just jammed him in the first half when he was setting up on the baseline, and Mitch put him foul line extended in the second half. Great complete view of the offense and defense. He’s in the middle of the floor, nearly literally, and they can’t send help without telegraphing it. He was cooking. If they double, the pass is obvious: the Spur who’s defender left him, forcing the defense to rotate at least once. If they don’t, he has room for one dribble, and a dunk or easy layup.

 

[bozhemoi]

There was one game where the opponent just jammed him in the first half when he was setting up on the baseline, and Mitch put him foul line extended in the second half. Great complete view of the offense and defense. He’s in the middle of the floor, nearly literally, and they can’t send help without telegraphing it. He was cooking. If they double, the pass is obvious: the Spur who’s defender left him, forcing the defense to rotate at least once. If they don’t, he has room for one dribble, and a dunk or easy layup.

I think that's going to part of his future, which is sort of the Jakob Poeltl spot, where Jakob learned how to really move the ball from that position.

IMO Wembanyama is capable of doing a ton of things from all points of the court. I expect eventually he'll be taking more threes. He'll play more of a post at times.

What I don't agree with right now is that he's good at playing as a traditional center. He's not good there at this time and really what I'm getting at with this post is that even if he was really good at that, this bogs down the entire rest of the team. So I think the coaching staff is working out ways to keep a deadly flowing offense while still raising Vic's own offensive potential.

 

[ambchang]

I have been saying it since last year that Wemby takes too much ground on offence, which is why it is ineffective for him to be that perimeter creator he seems to want to take. His handles are not as tight as Durant, and every dribble covers at least a foot more, so the double comes very easily. In most cases, the defence wasn't even doubling him, he just dribbles into the double.

I see there are two main offences the Spurs can run:
1) Wemby at the elbow, back to the basket, get the ball, turn around and scan. One guy each at the corner threes, 1 at the top of the 3, and one at the opposite side 3, FT line extended. This way the spacing would allow Wemby to dribble along the outside of the paint without anyone doubling, other than the corner on his side, at which point the corner three guy can either get a pass for an open 3, or just drive baseline for an easy layup. If the double is coming from the top, the top guy makes a cut into the open lane, forcing the opposite two guys to help or give up an open layup. if the double comes from FT line extended from the opposite side, either a pass or a cut will force a rotation. Add in some off ball cuts between the opposite side, or even from the top guy, and it's a relatively easily executable offence that could be hard to stop.

2) Wemby at a 45 degree angle on either the left or right at the 3 point line. The problem with this set up is that we would require one or two guys who is a threat from up to 30 feet to help with spacing, plus another guy who can score in the mid post. If we can have a mid post, a corner three on the strong side, and Wemby out at the 45 degree area, the opposition either would have to double the post with Wemby's man leaving him open for a 3 or leave the corner guy. Another way is for the post player to post on the other side, and Wemby on the weak side 45 degree angle, where he can just cut in for a dunk. Nobdy will be able to stop Wemby from receiving a pass that high, where he can catch it and go straight for a layup without putting the ball on the floor. Again, the weakside can also do all kinds of off ball screens and cuts and it would be difficult to stop. However, timing is key, and I am not sure if we have the guys to execute this.

 

[Kick-Stand]

I like what they were running in the Houston game in the second half where Victor would go to the low block to force Houston to put a big on him, then break and receive the ball in the high post just past the FT line where he can raise up for the shot, put the ball on the floor and attack the rim if no double, or hit cutters/shooters if the double comes. Just keep it simple with a young and inexperienced team, as they don't have the BBIQ yet to play the Beautiful Game the grizzled vets Tim, Tony, Manu, and Boris could. I just don't ever want Victor waiting at the three point line and especially just standing in the corner unless it's to clear out because say Fox got a center switched onto him and has an easy iso opportunity.

 

[ginobilized]

Great thread with lots of worthy thoughts.

I think it's just going to take a couple more years for him to really put it all together and for his teammates and coaches to create and execute more varied and detailed schemes. I love that Wemby has developed a 1-2 dribble pull-up jumper from the elbow that is pretty lethal. He's incorporated some of the Dream's footwork and is much stronger with he ball than in the last 2 years when using those moves. He seems like the kind of player who is going to learn from mistakes and develop skills and counters as he develops. 2 more offseasons like the last one and he's at the top of everyone's list as #1 player on the planet. Joker/Shai and Luka have a bit of time until then.

Wemby/Fox/Castle/Harper are the foundation for a very promising team. As I've overcome the trauma of watching some of the last few years with all you Baseline Bums, I'm starting to trust the FO in building a contender. We are getting closer, and are miles ahead of even where we were one year ago. Vassell/Champagnie/KJ/Kornet & DJG are decent players, but, I doubt we will retain more than 1 or 2 of them (if any) when Wemby is in his prime and we're contending for championships. As for what the perfect offense looks like, I have no clue.