Giannis Antetokounmpo Trade Watch

[poopbox]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2018500586962866334

I really hate to use this term because I abhor it and only really specific type of people ever use it...but this is some real cuck shit by dame tbh

 

[scott]

He really doesn’t seem that far away. A modest improvement next year would make a fair argument.

He’s probably only 4 3pt percentage points away from removing his biggest weakness.

Eventually he’s going to start getting more whistles as well.

FT % needs help but it’s not in the toilet.

I disagree. I think he's very far away from being an All-Star. The list of "snubs" between the roster and Castle isn't exactly small. Part of that isn't even his fault, it's just how the league emphasizes offense over defense.

 

[BacktoBasics]

I disagree. I think he's very far away from being an All-Star. The list of "snubs" between the roster and Castle isn't exactly small. Part of that isn't even his fault, it's just how the league emphasizes offense over defense.

I think winning overcomes a lot of that. I agree offensive is what’s emphasized but there’s a long history of winning rosters sporting 2-3 all stars and not everyone is scoring 25ppg.

There’s probably a substantial list of all stars that didn’t average 20ppg.

 

[scott]

I think winning overcomes a lot of that. I agree offensive is what’s emphasized but there’s a long history of winning rosters sporting 2-3 all stars and not everyone is scoring 25ppg.

There’s probably a substantial list of all stars that didn’t average 20ppg.

Amen is certainly viewed as a more impactful defender right now (whether that is deserved or not), and has a higher PPG and TS% than Castle, but isn't even remotely considered a snub.

Castle would have to practically develop into Prime Kawhi to make an all-star team, but Kawhi is playing like Prime Kawhi right now and didn't even make it!

 

[Kick-Stand]

I think Harper is already better than him.

I don't see that at all. Steph is an awful three point shooter but you can look past that a bit because of how great he is defensively. Definitely looks like he'll be an All NBA defender for years. Meanwhile Harper is a worse three point shooter without the incredible defensive skill Steph has. I think Harper has more upside but I can't imagine thinking Harper is better right now. I know Castle's 31.8% catch and shoot three point percentage is really bad but Harper's is 28.9%. Steph's floor is a rich man's Caruso.

 

[OK Computer]

What hate? Are you unable to have a conversation about him without interpreting as "hate"?

Saying a player is receiving hate is pretty common among sports forums. Should I have used “Castle criticism” to be more formal? If it wasn’t about the words I used and more of a direct thing towards me and my past posts in defense of Castle, then I apologize for whatever I did that caused you to be irritated to make this sort of post.

 

[scott]

I don't see that at all. Steph is an awful three point shooter but you can look past that a bit because of how great he is defensively. Definitely looks like he'll be an All NBA defender for years. Meanwhile Harper is a worse three point shooter without the incredible defensive skill Steph has. I think Harper has more upside but I can't imagine thinking Harper is better right now. I know Castle's 31.8% catch and shoot three point percentage is really bad but Harper's is 28.9%. Steph's floor is a rich man's Caruso.

Castle is certainly the better player right now, but it's easy to see why someone might see Harper as a better prospect.

 

[Ice009]

Amen is certainly viewed as a more impactful defender right now (whether that is deserved or not), and has a higher PPG and TS% than Castle, but isn't even remotely considered a snub.

Castle would have to practically develop into Prime Kawhi to make an all-star team, but Kawhi is playing like Prime Kawhi right now and didn't even make it!

That paints a picture of just how far away Castle is from being an all-star. Darn.

 

[Rafa]

Tbh gun to my head the safe bet is that Castle may make a random AS game or 2 randomly during a stellar year, but certainly not a perennial all star. With that said I really feel like him and Harper, if used properly, will make a great backcourt for years to come. I’d love it if Wemby was MVP, Harper was all NBA, and Castle was all defensive and that’s our core, and all these boys learn to shoot consistently at a good clip. A man can dream.

Anyway what’s this thread about again? Every thread in this place recently devolves into Castle or Mitch chat

 

[spurraider21]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2018500586962866334

this is like the kings trying to make derozan/lavine work

 

[scott]

Saying a player is receiving hate is pretty common among sports forums. Should I have used “Castle criticism” to be more formal? If it wasn’t about the words I used and more of a direct thing towards me and my past posts in defense of Castle, then I apologize for whatever I did that caused you to be irritated to make this sort of post.

IMO, it's just unnecessary hyperbole that I think we've largely done a good job moving away from on this forum. There is criticism, then there is actually irrational hate that some people in this community engage in regularly. The former is good discussion, the latter is... well, not. By conflating the two you are effectively dismissing the valid criticism without any actual consideration of those criticisms.

 

[scott]

That paints a picture of just how far away Castle is from being an all-star. Darn.

I mean, All Star is a really high bar and only when teams are REALLY good (especially in markets like San Antonio) does a team get two unless they are mega-stars in glamor markets (LA, for example). I think it will be difficult for Castle to put up the kind of offensive stats required to be an an All Star (or even All NBA), especially considering how balanced the Spurs typically like to make their teams from an offensive POV. Typically when a team has two All-Stars, those two guys tend to be the clear 1-2 punch on a team (some of the Spurs dual All Star nods not withstanding)

 

[Kick-Stand]

I think he has the potential to be an All NBA Defender (first team even), while being a slasher/cutter/finisher with good secondary playmaking skills. That's a very valuable player... but its not someone who gets All-Star nods.

How much better on offense do you think Amen Thompson would have to be to be an All-Star? Because I don't think he's particularly close right now, despite being a 1st Team Defender and having a higher scoring average and TS% than Castle. I don't foresee defensive specialists like these guys making AS games anytime soon.

I don't want to trade Castle for McDaniels either, btw.

Amen you flat out do not have to guard anything but the drive. He shoots 20.3% on catch and shoot threes, which is why the Spurs could get away playing the COVID defense of giving him six feet of separation on the perimeter. Steph's three point shooting is bad but it's 10.5% higher than Amen on catch and shoot. When it comes to three point catch and shoot Amen Thompson::Steph Castle : Steph Castle:: Donovan Mitchell.

 

[scott]

Amen you flat out do not have to guard anything but the drive. He shoots 20.3% on catch and shoot threes, which is why the Spurs could get away playing the COVID defense of giving him six feet of separation on the perimeter. Steph's three point shooting is bad but it's 10.5% higher than Amen on catch and shoot. When it comes to three point catch and shoot Amen Thompson::Steph Castle : Steph Castle:: Donovan Mitchell.

Guess what... they aren't inviting either of them to the 3 point contest. Trying to make a case for Castle being an All Star because he's better than Amen at 3s... you might as well make a case for Bismack to be an All Star because he rebounds better than Sochan.

 

[Kick-Stand]

Castle is certainly the better player right now, but it's easy to see why someone might see Harper as a better prospect.

I myself think Harper is the better prospect of the two and only disagreed with the idea Harper is better right now. I do think Harper has a quite a bit lower floor though. The shooting puzzles me so much since he was 40%+ on catch and shoot at Rutgers and he misses wide open practice shots routinely.

 

[poopbox]

Tbh gun to my head the safe bet is that Castle may make a random AS game or 2 randomly during a stellar year, but certainly not a perennial all star. With that said I really feel like him and Harper, if used properly, will make a great backcourt for years to come. I’d love it if Wemby was MVP, Harper was all NBA, and Castle was all defensive and that’s our core, and all these boys learn to shoot consistently at a good clip. A man can dream.

Anyway what’s this thread about again? Every thread in this place recently devolves into Castle or Mitch chat

I could see Castle making a "spurs have the best record and it would be silly for them to only have one all star" appearance like Chet is doing this year.

 

[Kick-Stand]

Guess what... they aren't inviting either of them to the 3 point contest. Trying to make a case for Castle being an All Star because he's better than Amen at 3s... you might as well make a case for Bismack to be an All Star because he rebounds better than Sochan.

Amen looks completely hopeless of ever developing a shot you have to guard outside of 12 feet. He might as well be Bismack at the three point line. Castle if he stops the idiotic Steph Curry fire the three up off the dribble early in the shot clock still looks to be a good offensive weapon and there's hope of inching towards that 35% mark with better shot selection.

 

[SpursBills]

If we're talking Castle's value right now to me, for reference, I'd trade him and a bunch of shit for Boozer in this year's draft, but that's because I think Boozer's literally the perfect fit next to Wemby not just from a skills standpoint but also a personality standpoint

I'd trade him and a small amount of shit + matching salary for someone like Franz Wagner.

I'd think long and hard about trading him one for one for Knueppel, but I still couldn't bring myself to do it

Probably no to TMIII and definitely no to anyone below that tier

(Also kind of weird that we've had a page of Castle talk on a Giannis thread)

 

[Kick-Stand]

I should say I don't see Castle becoming a yearly allstar or anything. More like a guy who could make it say 3-5 times and be there on the fringe for many years. Now Harper I could genuinely see as a yearly allstar if he hits his upside projections.

 

[scott]

Amen looks completely hopeless of ever developing a shot you have to guard outside of 12 feet. He might as well be Bismack at the three point line. Castle if he stops the idiotic Steph Curry fire the three up off the dribble early in the shot clock still looks to be a good offensive weapon and there's hope of inching towards that 35% mark with better shot selection.

Despite that, Amen has a higher scoring average and TS% than Castle right now. And Amen still isn't anywhere close to being an All-Star.

If Castle is an All-NBA First Team Defender averaging 22ppg, I could see him being an All-Star... but the Spurs seem to like to spread the offensive load around a little more.

Anyway... neither of us want to trade Castle for McDaniels, so who cares?

 

[KobesAchilles]

Yeah Castle just can’t shoot. He is pretty much what he is going to be for the next couple of seasons. There’s not going to be a marked shooting improvement on his three pointer in probably the next 4 seasons. My hope is that within 4 years, Castle develops some sort of midrange and in between game.

Since he’s not going to be a good 3 point shooter, I’d love it if Castle developed a post game. He has both the size and the strength to do it.

Also Castle isn’t making the all star team any time soon. Booker, SGA, Ant, Luka, and Murray are all better than him and will remain better than him for the foreseeable future.

 

[Quentin_Compson]

As so often, it's a matter of perspective. If I think that Castle's floor is a rich man's Caruso, then no, I'm not trading him for a player like McDaniels or TMIII. But that is also being VERY high on Castle - or being pretty low on Caruso, who is a decent shooter, a good connector, and (at least on a minute-per-minute basis) probably one of the best and versatile playoff defenders in the league over the last couple of years.

As for Giannis: My take is that neither him nor the Bucks seem hell-bent on making a trade happen right now, so I could easily see nothing happening until the offseason.

 

[Blizzardwizard]

the people wanting the spurs to facilitate a three-team giannis trade are monkey-pawing their way into nikola jovic and his 28.4% 3PT shooting being on the roster for the dallas games later this week

 

[LeBowen]

Despite that, Amen has a higher scoring average and TS% than Castle right now. And Amen still isn't anywhere close to being an All-Star.

Castle:

172-239 FT, 6.1 per game, 72%
Amen:

182-230 FT, 4.8 per game, 79%

I can't find the stats for FG% when unassisted, but I'd say most of Amen's efficency advantage comes from playing off the ball more.
A lot of us wante Castle to have a similar role instead of being the lead guard.
My biggest concern with Castle are his FTs, he really needs to get those close to 80% or he'll be a liability in the playoffs.
And as said many times, there's a bigger difference between a non-shooter like Amen and a bad shooter like Castle than between a bad shooter and a good shooter.
The only thing I really dislike about Castle's 3s is that often times he stands way behind the line, which is just pointless.

I myself think Harper is the better prospect of the two and only disagreed with the idea Harper is better right now. I do think Harper has a quite a bit lower floor though. The shooting puzzles me so much since he was 40%+ on catch and shoot at Rutgers and he misses wide open practice shots routinely.

Lower floor, really?
Worst case scenario Harper is going to be a great finisher, positive defender and a solid floor general. With his size, being a 6th man on a playoff team is his worst case scenario.
If Castle doesn't develop his shot and continues being Westbrook-like inefficent, his development can go in an unwanted trajectory over the next few years.

 

[spursfanfromafar]

Despite that, Amen has a higher scoring average and TS% than Castle right now. And Amen still isn't anywhere close to being an All-Star.

If Castle is an All-NBA First Team Defender averaging 22ppg, I could see him being an All-Star... but the Spurs seem to like to spread the offensive load around a little more.

Anyway... neither of us want to trade Castle for McDaniels, so who cares?

For me the thing that separates Castle from Amen is just 1 more year of experience. I believe that Castle will be a better player than Amen and closer to All Star selection next year. We have to study these players on a curve. Amen has improved as a distributor and finisher this year compared to last year where he was wreaking havoc on defense but not so much on offense.

Took him and the Rockets a while to find the niche for him. It is also easier for him to play off ball as the Rockets play him just in the dunker's spot after he initiates the offense and let's Sengun do the post work or KD use the elbows. Amen's job is to crash the boards from the dunker's spot and to either finish or reset the offense or find the open man in the scramble after securing the ORB.

That kind of role is unsuited not just for Castle but also not a fit for the Spurs' motion offense which is guard centric and needs to find Wemby closer to the hole. Unless Wemby improves as a post presence. Which I don't think is happening soon either.

So the best role for Castle remains ball handling and playmaking but I feel he should take a more secondary role rather than a primary one. Which is not far from what MATFO envisages as they work the guard centric offense over the course of the season.

The other thing about Castle and Amen on defense is that Castle seems far more versatile than Amen. Amen is disruptive and a brilliant on ball defender who takes on wings and guards. Castle has shown he can defend the post too. As he gains more experience his fouling will reduce and make him more impactful on that end too.

Folks have to listen what greats like Manu have to say about Castle and Harper. Manu called Castle's leap as significant while suggesting that Harper's ceiling is far higher than his own because of his ambidexterity and his abilities at such a young age.

The Spurs should continue to be patient with these two Slash Brothers despite their poor shooting. The sky is the limit. Wemby's development will in the meantime be best placed within this framework as well.